Women wielding swords/daggers/bows in the past

migueldiaz · 30th December 2008, 01:43 PM

Philippine Dagger 3 as well as Dagger 2 I believe, in Krieger's Plate No. 13 (below), are both women's blades:

"Plate 13. Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers ... 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao ..."

Aleksey G. · 31st December 2008, 04:19 AM

Thank you guys for the info and the links.
Katana and Bill thank you for the the welcome

If anybody else find this topic, feel free to add.
Will appreciate any info and pictures.

Bill M · 31st December 2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleksey G.

Thank you guys for the info and the links.
Katana and Bill thank you for the the welcome

If anybody else find this topic, feel free to add.
Will appreciate any info and pictures.

Aleks and all,

I find it convenient to track posts I make, or respond to, by changing the 'notifications' in my personal profile to automatically subscribe me to the posts. This give me future notifications any time anyone replies.

It is a nice and powerful feature of this forum's software.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 31st December 2008, 04:16 PM

Somes pics of african (Congo) women or young girls with knives, in ceremonial use.
Luc

josh stout · 1st January 2009, 03:03 AM

Women and weapons in Chinese culture is a complex topic. There seem to be two very strong apposing modes. On the one hand, you have the traditional woman with bound feet and a subservient role who could never fight. On the other hand you have a very long tradition of female fighters in literature and reality. They seem to have always been a small minority who fought, but skilled women were considered the equal of men. The jian was considered a woman's weapon even though it was mostly men who used them. I think it was with jian that women were particularly the equals of men due to the emphasis of quickness over strength with the sword. The Manchu did not use women in the regular army, but did consider that they should learn archery and horsemanship just like the men. The Manchu tried several times to forbid foot binding specifically because it made women week and unfit to ride.

The monasteries of China have a long martial tradition, and often had associated nunneries with fighting nuns and their own styles. In my system of kungfu there are many women's systems, among them one dedicated to the only female of the eight immortals. It uses hairpins, needles/darts, and a short sword strapped to the back. Unfortunately it is only taught as an empty hand form today.
Josh

migueldiaz · 1st January 2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc LEFEBVRE

Somes pics of african (Congo) women or young girls with knives, in ceremonial use.

Thanks for the interesting pics, Luc

Some of the women have large breasts as is obvious. Though the geographic setting is different, just the same the fact appears to disprove the urban legend that the right breast of Amazons are cut off for practical purposes.

Like for instance we read about the myth[?] in the Wikipedia article on Amazons:

"This word [Amazon] is probably derived from an Iranian ethnonym *ha-mazan-, 'warriors'.[citation needed] A connected word is probably Hesychius of Alexandria's gloss ἁμαζακάραν· πολεμεῖν. Πέρσαι (hamazakaran: "to make war" (Persian), containing the Indo-Iranian root kar- 'make' also in kar-ma).[citation needed] Among Classical Greeks, amazon was given a naive etymology as from a- (privative) + mazos, 'without breast', connected with an etiological tradition that Amazons had their right breast cut off or burnt out, so they would be able to use a bow more freely and throw spears without the physical limitation and obstruction;[1] there is no indication of such a practice in works of art, in which the Amazons are always represented with both breasts, although the right is frequently covered."

xxx

"Hippocrates describes them as: 'They have no right breasts...for while they are yet babies their mothers make red-hot a bronze instrument constructed for this very purpose and apply it to the right breast and cauterize it, so that its growth is arrested, and all its strength and bulk are diverted to the right shoulder and right arm.' (See breast ironing, a current practice in which breast growth is deliberately stunted.)"

Perhaps those who know archery can also give us their insights.

fearn · 1st January 2009, 05:51 PM

I'm not much of an archer, but I would note that in kyudo, male archers sometimes take off their left sleeves and bare their left breast. I assume this is so that the cloth doesn't tangle in the long sleeve, since they are bracing their bows with the left hand and drawing with the right.

Note that I have yet to see a picture of a woman doing this, but I'd guess that, if a woman wasn't too well endowed, she could do the same thing to clear her arm to draw the bow. This would result in having one bare breast and one covered, leading to Hippocrates' description. Personally, I'd bet that most women are too intelligent to do this, but who knows. Maybe the amazons did this during archery competitions or something, to mess with the aim of their male competitors.

F

migueldiaz · 2nd January 2009, 01:36 AM

Thanks for the comments, Fearn.

I was watching the other day the kyudo episode of the 'Samurai Spirit' [documentary] on NHK. And yes, having just learned what kyudo is, they do bare one part of the chest to facilitate the arrow shooting.

Which indeed makes one wonder whether perhaps the [Amazons] story is true.

In the 180 BC relief below, one of the Amazons is definitely showing one bare breast. And it seems to have been mastectomized (or was the relief just abraded over time?).

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc LEFEBVRE

Somes pics of african (Congo) women or young girls with knives, in ceremonial use.
Luc

Is that a tiny mambele with a disc on its tip? It certainly looks like one? although the disc seems all-white and could be a trick reflection....

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 01:17 PM

3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao ..."[/I][/QUOTE]

This appears to be a cane-splitting knife; a typical work knife often associated with women.

30th December 2008, 01:43 PM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Philippine Dagger 3 as well as Dagger 2 I believe, in Krieger's Plate No. 13 (below), are both women's blades: "Plate 13. Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers ... 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao ..." Attached Images

31st December 2008, 04:16 PM	#4
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Somes pics of african (Congo) women or young girls with knives, in ceremonial use. Luc Attached Images

2nd January 2009, 01:36 AM	#8
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Thanks for the comments, Fearn. I was watching the other day the kyudo episode of the 'Samurai Spirit' [documentary] on NHK. And yes, having just learned what kyudo is, they do bare one part of the chest to facilitate the arrow shooting. Which indeed makes one wonder whether perhaps the [Amazons] story is true. In the 180 BC relief below, one of the Amazons is definitely showing one bare breast. And it seems to have been mastectomized (or was the relief just abraded over time?). Attached Images

31st December 2008, 04:19 AM	#2
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	Thank you guys for the info and the links. Katana and Bill thank you for the the welcome If anybody else find this topic, feel free to add. Will appreciate any info and pictures.

1st January 2009, 03:03 AM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Women and weapons in Chinese culture is a complex topic. There seem to be two very strong apposing modes. On the one hand, you have the traditional woman with bound feet and a subservient role who could never fight. On the other hand you have a very long tradition of female fighters in literature and reality. They seem to have always been a small minority who fought, but skilled women were considered the equal of men. The jian was considered a woman's weapon even though it was mostly men who used them. I think it was with jian that women were particularly the equals of men due to the emphasis of quickness over strength with the sword. The Manchu did not use women in the regular army, but did consider that they should learn archery and horsemanship just like the men. The Manchu tried several times to forbid foot binding specifically because it made women week and unfit to ride. The monasteries of China have a long martial tradition, and often had associated nunneries with fighting nuns and their own styles. In my system of kungfu there are many women's systems, among them one dedicated to the only female of the eight immortals. It uses hairpins, needles/darts, and a short sword strapped to the back. Unfortunately it is only taught as an empty hand form today. Josh

1st January 2009, 05:51 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm not much of an archer, but I would note that in kyudo, male archers sometimes take off their left sleeves and bare their left breast. I assume this is so that the cloth doesn't tangle in the long sleeve, since they are bracing their bows with the left hand and drawing with the right. Note that I have yet to see a picture of a woman doing this, but I'd guess that, if a woman wasn't too well endowed, she could do the same thing to clear her arm to draw the bow. This would result in having one bare breast and one covered, leading to Hippocrates' description. Personally, I'd bet that most women are too intelligent to do this, but who knows. Maybe the amazons did this during archery competitions or something, to mess with the aim of their male competitors. F

7th July 2011, 01:17 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao ..."[/I][/QUOTE] This appears to be a cane-splitting knife; a typical work knife often associated with women.