VOC Sabre yes/no

Valk · 29th December 2008, 09:25 PM

Hello all,

To speak English is not very difficult, but to write it! So in advance excuse my English please.
I am looking for help on finding info on this sword (picture).

I won’t sell the Sword, but I like to now if its authentic.
It’s in the family for almost 30years.

VOC stands for: De Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie (The United Dutch East Asia Company)
There are different characters on the Sword. On both sides the same.

Characters:
VOC
1774
(+ characters)

total length of the sword (sabre) some 80cm (32inch), blade approximately 65cm (25,5inch)
The grip maybe bronze?
The Blade is connected through the grip (on the backside of the grip)

Please look at the picture and let me know what you think. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely

Valk

VANDOO · 2nd January 2009, 06:34 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

I HAVE NO KNOWLEGE ON THESE SWORDS BUT AS A REPLY SEEMS TO BE SLOW IN COMING I WILL MAKE A SUGGESTION. USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THE CURRENT FORUM FOR VOC AND THEN GO TO THE FORUM ARCHIVES AND SEARCH THERE. IF YOU STILL DO NOT FIND THE INFORMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SEE WHO THE MOST KNOWLEGABLE FORUM MEMBERS IN THE POSTS ARE AND SEND THEM AN EMAIL. GOOD LUCK

Amuk Murugul · 2nd January 2009, 09:03 PM

Hullo Valk,

Welcome to the forum.
In the absence of any info so far, I am putting my input. I hope it is of some help.

Your blade looks like it was made in Hoorn in 1774.
The VOC had contracts to build and operate foundaries in such places as India. Among the things produced in these places were blades for trade/commerce.
I am including info/fotos for a Pedang Soenda with such a blade.

Name: Si Loetoeng
Cat.: PedangSoenda
Type: Pedang Abet Pamoeka
Blade: VOC sabre, 49.5cm., 0.35cm thick
Handle: Makara Bolong, buffalo horn
Age: c. 1773
Origin: Tatar Soenda

mvg,

Rick · 2nd January 2009, 09:40 PM

The blade and the hilt don't seem to be the same age at least as far as wear and abuse goes .

Remount ??

Jeff D · 2nd January 2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The blade and the hilt don't seem to be the same age at least as far as wear and abuse goes .

Remount ??

Hi Rick,

Not necessarily so. Iron will act as the sacrificial electrode when in contact with copper or brass. It would corrode at an accelerated rate and should therefore look much more abused.

All the Best
Jeff

M ELEY · 2nd January 2009, 10:55 PM

Unfortunately, the hilt on this sword is one of those generic pattern artillary hilts found on French, Prussian and Spanish pieces roughly of the period ca.1830-1890. I'm not familiar with any Dutch pieces having this hilt. I thought that the VOC stood for the Dutch East India Company? I'm not familiar with the 'United Dutch East Asia Company', as I assumed after the the East India trading company went under circa 1800, there were no further companies involved? Interesting. So...if this Dutch East Asia Co existed into the 19th century, it could be a real piece. If not and the VOC stands for the earlier company, it has either been re-hilted or is a fake. I guess one other possibility is that someone affectionately inscribed it on a later sword out of found rememberence of the company.
If the VOC marking is attached to a later company (this Asia company you speak of), this might explain why this marking is sometimes found on more 19th century pieces.
Shaver Cool, anyone??

Sorry, Jim! Couldn't resist!!

Rick · 2nd January 2009, 11:15 PM

Slowly I turned .....

Thanks Jeff for that tidbit about the reaction .

Jeff D · 2nd January 2009, 11:17 PM

Although way out of my area, I did find this listed as a Dutch pattern Naval Hanger by R.J.Wilkinson-Latham in Pictorial history of swords and Bayonets . Undated and with different quillions, but may show a pattern of lineage from the VOC saber above.
Hi Rick, glad to help.

All the Best
Jeff

Amuk Murugul · 3rd January 2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I thought that the VOC stood for the Dutch East India Company? I'm not familiar with the 'United Dutch East Asia Company', as I assumed after the the East India trading company went under circa 1800, there were no further companies involved? Interesting. So...if this Dutch East Asia Co existed into the 19th century, it could be a real piece. If not and the VOC stands for the earlier company, it has either been re-hilted or is a fake. I guess one other possibility is that someone affectionately inscribed it on a later sword out of found rememberence of the company.
If the VOC marking is attached to a later company (this Asia company you speak of), this might explain why this marking is sometimes found on more 19th century pieces.
Shaver Cool, anyone??

Sorry, Jim! Couldn't resist!!

Hullo everybody!

De Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie (The United Dutch East Asia Company): the words in brackets are Valk's free translation from the Dutch. Don't be too harsh.

The literal translation would be something like: The United Eastindies Company (1602 - 1800).

Best,

Dajak · 3rd January 2009, 09:43 AM

It don't look like an real one .

But they told you almost the same on this forum

http://www.swordfactsbenelux.nl/foru...php?f=4&t=1189

Ben

Valk · 3rd January 2009, 11:31 AM

Thanks everybody,

I asked an expert in Holland. Probably it is a real old Sabre. Likely it is composite from two swords. A French Briquet (1809/1811) and an VOC chamber Hoorn kling (blade).

It was common for militia and for the garde-champêtre (=patrolman) in Dutch Indonesia to build there own (cheap) sabre.

He send me the pictures of the Briquet. Although the number of ribs on the handle don’t match (mine has 30, and the briquet 36?). The rest is identical.

Now I focus on the VOC chamber kling (perhaps a sort Pedang Soenda??).

I know there are different translations (VOC). Mine came from: http://library.thinkquest.org/26488/en/index.html

Once more, thanks for the info.

Peter

Jeff D · 3rd January 2009, 07:51 PM

Hi Valk,

The French briquet is the ubiquitous brass hilts M ELEY was refering to. Yours is slightly different. If you look at the end of the quillion it has a nipple shape rather than the more common blunt tip as seen in the picture or the flattened scroll as seen in the Dutch naval saber. Your hilt may be a later replacement, but it may also be original. The answer lies in dating that 'nipple' tip quillion.

All the best
Jeff

29th December 2008, 09:25 PM	#1
Valk Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2	VOC Sabre yes/no Hello all, To speak English is not very difficult, but to write it! So in advance excuse my English please. I am looking for help on finding info on this sword (picture). I won’t sell the Sword, but I like to now if its authentic. It’s in the family for almost 30years. VOC stands for: De Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie (The United Dutch East Asia Company) There are different characters on the Sword. On both sides the same. Characters: VOC 1774 (+ characters) total length of the sword (sabre) some 80cm (32inch), blade approximately 65cm (25,5inch) The grip maybe bronze? The Blade is connected through the grip (on the backside of the grip) Please look at the picture and let me know what you think. Any info will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely Valk Attached Images

2nd January 2009, 09:03 PM	#3
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Hullo Valk, Welcome to the forum. In the absence of any info so far, I am putting my input. I hope it is of some help. Your blade looks like it was made in Hoorn in 1774. The VOC had contracts to build and operate foundaries in such places as India. Among the things produced in these places were blades for trade/commerce. I am including info/fotos for a Pedang Soenda with such a blade. Name: Si Loetoeng Cat.: PedangSoenda Type: Pedang Abet Pamoeka Blade: VOC sabre, 49.5cm., 0.35cm thick Handle: Makara Bolong, buffalo horn Age: c. 1773 Origin: Tatar Soenda mvg, Attached Images Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 2nd January 2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: resize fotos

2nd January 2009, 11:17 PM	#8
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Although way out of my area, I did find this listed as a Dutch pattern Naval Hanger by R.J.Wilkinson-Latham in Pictorial history of swords and Bayonets . Undated and with different quillions, but may show a pattern of lineage from the VOC saber above. Hi Rick, glad to help. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

3rd January 2009, 11:31 AM	#11
Valk Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2	Thanks everybody, I asked an expert in Holland. Probably it is a real old Sabre. Likely it is composite from two swords. A French Briquet (1809/1811) and an VOC chamber Hoorn kling (blade). It was common for militia and for the garde-champêtre (=patrolman) in Dutch Indonesia to build there own (cheap) sabre. He send me the pictures of the Briquet. Although the number of ribs on the handle don’t match (mine has 30, and the briquet 36?). The rest is identical. Now I focus on the VOC chamber kling (perhaps a sort Pedang Soenda??). I know there are different translations (VOC). Mine came from: http://library.thinkquest.org/26488/en/index.html Once more, thanks for the info. Peter Attached Images

2nd January 2009, 06:34 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM I HAVE NO KNOWLEGE ON THESE SWORDS BUT AS A REPLY SEEMS TO BE SLOW IN COMING I WILL MAKE A SUGGESTION. USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THE CURRENT FORUM FOR VOC AND THEN GO TO THE FORUM ARCHIVES AND SEARCH THERE. IF YOU STILL DO NOT FIND THE INFORMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SEE WHO THE MOST KNOWLEGABLE FORUM MEMBERS IN THE POSTS ARE AND SEND THEM AN EMAIL. GOOD LUCK

2nd January 2009, 09:40 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The blade and the hilt don't seem to be the same age at least as far as wear and abuse goes . Remount ??

2nd January 2009, 10:55 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Unfortunately, the hilt on this sword is one of those generic pattern artillary hilts found on French, Prussian and Spanish pieces roughly of the period ca.1830-1890. I'm not familiar with any Dutch pieces having this hilt. I thought that the VOC stood for the Dutch East India Company? I'm not familiar with the 'United Dutch East Asia Company', as I assumed after the the East India trading company went under circa 1800, there were no further companies involved? Interesting. So...if this Dutch East Asia Co existed into the 19th century, it could be a real piece. If not and the VOC stands for the earlier company, it has either been re-hilted or is a fake. I guess one other possibility is that someone affectionately inscribed it on a later sword out of found rememberence of the company. If the VOC marking is attached to a later company (this Asia company you speak of), this might explain why this marking is sometimes found on more 19th century pieces. Shaver Cool, anyone?? Sorry, Jim! Couldn't resist!!

2nd January 2009, 11:15 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Slowly I turned ..... Thanks Jeff for that tidbit about the reaction .

3rd January 2009, 09:43 AM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It don't look like an real one . But they told you almost the same on this forum http://www.swordfactsbenelux.nl/foru...php?f=4&t=1189 Ben

3rd January 2009, 07:51 PM	#12
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Valk, The French briquet is the ubiquitous brass hilts M ELEY was refering to. Yours is slightly different. If you look at the end of the quillion it has a nipple shape rather than the more common blunt tip as seen in the picture or the flattened scroll as seen in the Dutch naval saber. Your hilt may be a later replacement, but it may also be original. The answer lies in dating that 'nipple' tip quillion. All the best Jeff