Yataghan from Napoli?

Valjhun · 6th October 2008, 09:14 PM

Just finished on ebay and I've forgot to bid on it

Has that type of weapon an appropriate italian name?

Anybody knows that marking?

TVV · 6th October 2008, 09:34 PM

1. Why Italian?
2. Why Naples?
3. Could this be a reused blade from something else?

Valjhun · 12th October 2008, 05:07 PM

There was a type of sword, similar to the turkish yatagan in Napoli, during the 19th century if I'm not wrong.

Judging from the type of decoration and the marking on the blade, I would say that this one could be a Naples YAT.

Perhaps Jim can put a word on it, with hus admirable knowledge.

ariel · 12th October 2008, 05:15 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...yataghan+italy
BTW, what happened to your pics?

Valjhun · 12th October 2008, 05:52 PM

Hmm.... I've pasted links directly from ebay. It seems that the seller has allready withrdrew them. That is a pitty. It was really a remarkable piece.

I can tell the auction number: 160288278190

TVV · 12th October 2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

There was a type of sword, similar to the turkish yatagan in Napoli, during the 19th century if I'm not wrong.

Judging from the type of decoration and the marking on the blade, I would say that this one could be a Naples YAT.

Perhaps Jim can put a word on it, with hus admirable knowledge.

I would love to learn more, especially with examples and references.

Valjhun · 14th October 2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I would love to learn more, especially with examples and references.

Well me to... especially 'cos that specific one was very very nice indeed

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

There was a type of sword, similar to the turkish yatagan in Napoli, during the 19th century if I'm not wrong.

Judging from the type of decoration and the marking on the blade, I would say that this one could be a Naples YAT.

Perhaps Jim can put a word on it, with hus admirable knowledge.

Thank you for the very kind words Valjhun! but more hittin' the books a lot than knowledge

Wish I could have seen this one...curiosity is killin me !

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 9th November 2008, 08:45 PM

That italian yataghan emerged on the ashokaarts page. You can see the pictures there.

Any further comments?

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2008, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

That italian yataghan emerged on the ashokaarts page. You can see the pictures there.

Any further comments?

This is still really intriguing me, but I couldnt get anything on the Ashoka site that looked like what you're describing. If anybody can get link or a way to get these photos it would be great.

It was interesting looking back at that 2001 discussion RSword and I had on some Italian naval swords I think with yataghan type blades ("Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene", Calamendrei, p345) a resource I wish I still had!!
The illustrations are gone from the thread, but these swords seem to date from early 19th century, possibly Labruna workshop in Naples. There was also discussion on Illyrian units of France in Adriatic regions possibly having a yataghan type sword. The yataghan type blade became very popular on bayonets across Europe in the 19th century, even the U.S. had this type bayonet.

I doubt if there was a specific term to a yataghan type sword from Italy, but it seems the style was certainly likely found in weapons from there.

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 10th November 2008, 08:01 PM

Here you go Jim.

linky

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 03:28 AM

Thank you Spiral!

In looking at this sword on the Ashoka site, and after again reviewing the threads from 2001 and 2006, I feel this is quite likely one of these forward curved Ottoman type swords of the Napoleonic period in the Adriatic. It is known that 'pandour' units were incorporated into the French 'international' army which served in the Illyrian provinces of the French Empire, under that suzerainty 1809-1813. In this army were also Italians, and the geopolitical complexity of this period in the Adriatic would take a lot more writing than my usual!

I have seen examples of what appear to be French swords of this same yataghan blade and hilt form (though the one in mind had a small vestigial crossguard). There was a ligature under a crown cypher on the blade, and the hilt staghorn with cleft pommel. The makers stamp was incomplete lettering of European form of the period.

In Rswords post of 3/24/01, he notes a mark of an 'I' with three stars over it and a crown over that on a yataghan type sword. I found a similar yataghan type sword in Calamendrei (op.cit.p.345) which was attribited to a unit called 'Cangiaro de Truppa' 1814-20. I no longer have that reference to consult, so I'm not sure what type unit, and I think the Ashoka sword is earlier. In the same Calamendrei reference there are several naval swords of the period with Giuseppe and Labruna inscriptions, of same period. Ariel (5/21/06) notes Labruna as a Neopolitan workshop.

King Ferdinand IV of Italy (1751-1825)was also King Ferdinand III of Sicily (perhaps the three stars? and crown?). The 'L' in the markings on the discussion sword probably Labruna (?).

The pandour units were of 18th century Austrian origin primarily as 'grenzers' (Ger. grenz=border) as border patrol, who acted as light irregular auxiliary units, later as noted, adopted into the French army. They typically had a great degree of autonomy as far as uniforms and weapons, and usually adopted Oriental and Ottoman type fashion as well as weapons. This was another key example of psychological effect in presenting fearsome and unorthodox appearance, used in so many forms in military history, i.e Celts, Landsknechts, and many others.

A truly beautiful example that very likely has associations to one of these most colorful auxiliary units, and of Napoleonic period in the Adriatic.

All best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 11th November 2008, 08:15 PM

Hi All,
Have found this info about Pandours thought it may be of interest.
Pandours, a widely used name for Balkan irregulars, originated in troops raised in 16th Century Dalmatia under Venetian rule, who in 1748 were organized into a police unit to guard the border with Turkish Herzegovina. The French retained this force and its organization when Dalmatia was acquired in 1805. The Pandours were initially deployed in suppressing pro-Russian rebellions and engaging the Tsar's troops in 1806 before serving as the escort to Marshal Marmont's baggage during the 1809 war and later joining the forces of the Illyrian Provinces. This information was derived from ' Napoleon's Balkan Troops ' by Vladimir Brnardic.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi All,
Have found this info about Pandours thought it may be of interest.
Pandours, a widely used name for Balkan irregulars, originated in troops raised in 16th Century Dalmatia under Venetian rule, who in 1748 were organized into a police unit to guard the border with Turkish Herzegovina. The French retained this force and its organization when Dalmatia was acquired in 1805. The Pandours were initially deployed in suppressing pro-Russian rebellions and engaging the Tsar's troops in 1806 before serving as the escort to Marshal Marmont's baggage during the 1809 war and later joining the forces of the Illyrian Provinces. This information was derived from ' Napoleon's Balkan Troops ' by Vladimir Brnardic.
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you Norman, this is really great additional information. I think this is probably one of the most esoteric theaters of the Napoleonic period, and certainly one with the least published material on it (in English at least).
I know that I had a British M1796 light cavalry sabre with curious markings on it (CsA) and for years tried to discover what they meant. Eventually, thanks to Richard Dellar, I found that these were to a regiment at Castel San Angelo in c.1804 most likely.

The pandours greatly influenced the use of auxiliary units along with standing army and line regiments, which were later widely used by French, and German armies influenced by these Austrian forces. It is known that von Trenck's units greatly favored the yataghan, and this of course influenced the weapons chosen in French, and apparantly Italian officers of these units.
The only reference I have seen that illustrated weapons close to this Italian made yataghan and the French one I mentioned, is "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" by Iaroslav Lebedynsky, showing some of these, with at least one example being a combination weapon.

I think the Ashoka weapon is an important example, and it would be great to see if other such examples are out there. There is the one that Rsword came up with in 2001 as well.

All best regards,
Jim

6th October 2008, 09:14 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Yataghan from Napoli? Just finished on ebay and I've forgot to bid on it Has that type of weapon an appropriate italian name? Anybody knows that marking?

12th October 2008, 05:52 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	dumnonia_forum Hmm.... I've pasted links directly from ebay. It seems that the seller has allready withrdrew them. That is a pitty. It was really a remarkable piece. I can tell the auction number: 160288278190

11th November 2008, 03:28 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you Spiral! In looking at this sword on the Ashoka site, and after again reviewing the threads from 2001 and 2006, I feel this is quite likely one of these forward curved Ottoman type swords of the Napoleonic period in the Adriatic. It is known that 'pandour' units were incorporated into the French 'international' army which served in the Illyrian provinces of the French Empire, under that suzerainty 1809-1813. In this army were also Italians, and the geopolitical complexity of this period in the Adriatic would take a lot more writing than my usual! I have seen examples of what appear to be French swords of this same yataghan blade and hilt form (though the one in mind had a small vestigial crossguard). There was a ligature under a crown cypher on the blade, and the hilt staghorn with cleft pommel. The makers stamp was incomplete lettering of European form of the period. In Rswords post of 3/24/01, he notes a mark of an 'I' with three stars over it and a crown over that on a yataghan type sword. I found a similar yataghan type sword in Calamendrei (op.cit.p.345) which was attribited to a unit called 'Cangiaro de Truppa' 1814-20. I no longer have that reference to consult, so I'm not sure what type unit, and I think the Ashoka sword is earlier. In the same Calamendrei reference there are several naval swords of the period with Giuseppe and Labruna inscriptions, of same period. Ariel (5/21/06) notes Labruna as a Neopolitan workshop. King Ferdinand IV of Italy (1751-1825)was also King Ferdinand III of Sicily (perhaps the three stars? and crown?). The 'L' in the markings on the discussion sword probably Labruna (?). The pandour units were of 18th century Austrian origin primarily as 'grenzers' (Ger. grenz=border) as border patrol, who acted as light irregular auxiliary units, later as noted, adopted into the French army. They typically had a great degree of autonomy as far as uniforms and weapons, and usually adopted Oriental and Ottoman type fashion as well as weapons. This was another key example of psychological effect in presenting fearsome and unorthodox appearance, used in so many forms in military history, i.e Celts, Landsknechts, and many others. A truly beautiful example that very likely has associations to one of these most colorful auxiliary units, and of Napoleonic period in the Adriatic. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th November 2008 at 06:10 PM.

6th October 2008, 09:34 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	1. Why Italian? 2. Why Naples? 3. Could this be a reused blade from something else?

12th October 2008, 05:07 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	There was a type of sword, similar to the turkish yatagan in Napoli, during the 19th century if I'm not wrong. Judging from the type of decoration and the marking on the blade, I would say that this one could be a Naples YAT. Perhaps Jim can put a word on it, with hus admirable knowledge.

12th October 2008, 05:15 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...yataghan+italy BTW, what happened to your pics?

9th November 2008, 08:45 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	That italian yataghan emerged on the ashokaarts page. You can see the pictures there. Any further comments?

10th November 2008, 08:01 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Here you go Jim. linky Spiral

11th November 2008, 08:15 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi All, Have found this info about Pandours thought it may be of interest. Pandours, a widely used name for Balkan irregulars, originated in troops raised in 16th Century Dalmatia under Venetian rule, who in 1748 were organized into a police unit to guard the border with Turkish Herzegovina. The French retained this force and its organization when Dalmatia was acquired in 1805. The Pandours were initially deployed in suppressing pro-Russian rebellions and engaging the Tsar's troops in 1806 before serving as the escort to Marshal Marmont's baggage during the 1809 war and later joining the forces of the Illyrian Provinces. This information was derived from ' Napoleon's Balkan Troops ' by Vladimir Brnardic. Regards, Norman.