Persian date opinion sought on khanjar

[rand]

Would appreciate you opinion of translation of date on the hilt of this Persian khanjar. Have a knowledgable opinion of 1200, but wonder about the possibilty of 1260,1206,1210 or 1201 and would value your opinions. The curved detail under the flower to the right of the two is what I ponder because it is the only place where the stem does not attach at the middle of the flower which makes me wonder if it is instead a number.

Thanks,

rand

[Atlantia]

WOW!

If there were a smilie for 'weeping with envy' I'd insert it here.

[Dom]

it's seems to me, 1365

[rand]

Originally Posted by Dom

it's seems to me, 1365

Hi Dom,

Thanks for your opinion.
Is interesting to me that you also view the possibility of a six being read in the date....

Thanks,

rand

[rand]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

WOW!

If there were a smilie for 'weeping with envy' I'd insert it here.

The influence from Europe on Persian art is very evident, especially in the 18-19th century, even though the figures have wings they may represent Adam and Eve. Below is the other side of the handle and wonder if it is Adam under the tree of life. The bird in the tree is very popular motif in Persian art, as are the roses.

One thing that strikes me is the beard and how similar the image is to viking art. The balance of multiples of two is very commen on Persian art, its one of the clues that helps differentiate from Ottomans where multiples of three are more commen. Is simply a beautiful, well designed and expertly crafted example of Persian carved Ivory.

Would love to know the symbolism of the moustache, any ideas?

rand

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by rand

The influence from Europe on Persian art is very evident, especially in the 18-19th century, even though the figures have wings they may represent Adam and Eve. Below is the other side of the handle and wonder if it is Adam under the tree of life. The bird in the tree is very popular motif in Persian art, as are the roses.

One thing that strikes me is the beard and how similar the image is to viking art. The balance of multiples of two is very commen on Persian art, its one of the clues that helps differentiate from Ottomans where multiples of three are more commen. Is simply a beautiful, well designed and expertly crafted example of Persian carved Ivory.

Would love to know the symbolism of the moustache, any ideas?

rand

Hi Rand

Its simply breathtaking and heartbreakingly beautiful, it certainly reminds me of European ivovy carving of the time (although erotic angels might have earned an unexpected visit from the Inquisition). I think I've got a couple of books that might show some European examples of similar date, I'll have a look for you and come back with anything I find.

Regards
Gene
May we see the whole piece?

[rand]

HI Gene,

Here is the entire dagger

If the Persian date of 1200 holds up that is translated into the AD date by subtracting 3%

1200
- 36 (3% of 1200))
1164

then adding 622

1164
+ 622
1786 (possible date)

rand

[Atlantia]

Its beautiful from tip to toe isn't it?
The chap with the big moustache is very interesting. I can't help but think of the Green Man - 'jack in the green' images often carved into english churchs especially rood screens. 'jack' has a 'moustache' which can be anything from a very long curling moustache to actual leaves and foliage sprouting from his nostrils. The image is also often framed by other swirling leaf-like scrolls. The image on your dagger hilt really brings these to mind.

[Atlantia]

LOL, its late here and I've been up for nearly 48 hours with an ill dog so if I'm barking ;-) up the wrong tree please make allowances.
Have a look at this quote from wiki concerning the green man in other cultures:


In his A Little Book of The Green Man, as well as his website, Mike Harding gives examples of similar figures in Borneo, Nepal, and India: the earliest is a foliate head from an 8th century Jain temple in Rajasthan.[13] He also notes that heads from Lebanon and Iraq can be dated to the 2nd century and that there are early Romanesque foliate heads in 11th century Templar churches in Jerusalem. He tentatively suggests that the symbol may have originated in Asia Minor and been brought to Europe by travelling stonecarvers.

Other gods depicted green are (in Tibet) Amogha-siddhi and (in Mexico) Tlaloc.

In Sanskrit the Green Man is cognate with the gana Kirtimukha or "Face of Glory" which is related to a lila of Shiva and Rahu. The Face of Glory is often seen in Vajrayana Buddhist Thanka art and iconography where it is often incorporated as a cloudform simulacrum; and depicted crowning the 'Wheel of Becoming' or the Bhavachakra.[14]


If you want to see his site:
http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/

Chesk out the green man section and 'green man in India'. Some similarities.

He says: ' If we suppose a common Indo-European origin for our language then the idea of symbols and myths travelling across to Europe from India and Persia seems less than fanciful to me'



Obviously its a more distintly 'Indian' image in the above pic, but the fact that it IS more like a European 'green man' image and not a 'face of glory' Indian/asian image is very interesting. Yours looks very much more European, in fact the entire piece looks like that oriental influeneced european carved Ivory from the medieval period onwards.

The V&A has a similar dagger to yours but I cant find a better picture:

[rand]

Hey Gene,

Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date.

So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact.

This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia.

The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork.

rand

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Gene,

Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date.

So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact.

This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia.

The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork.

rand

Hi Rand,

Its certainly an interesting area for research, have you seen this 'moustached' man represented on other weapons?
I've found a sim ilar image on a shield, but the picture is terrible.
Still, you can see the similarities.
Any thoughts?

[rand]

Hey Gene,

Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy.

See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity.

Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here.

Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating.

rand

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Gene,

Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy.

See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity.

Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here.

Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating.

rand

LOL, well its funny you should say that, I was thinking of the classic image of teh 19th century asian/Indian gentleman with his large moustache. Is it possible that its just a reflection of fashion?

OR for that matter the British military types of the period too! Handlebar moustahes were somewhat a theme!

[rand]

Hi Gene,

My preliminary feeling is that the mustache is a style of the time, but more information could change that opinion. Certainly is a posibility of a desgn wanted by the artist. If a wide mustache was in style only during the 19th century, it would add more credence to the nuumber six being used in the date.

rand

[ward]

Talking about Zand dynasty Fath Ali Shah was worse read up on him al ittle courtiers were afraid to go near him he had a habit of knocking their teeth out with his hiheel shoe if he was in a bad mood then they were supposed to thank him afterward.
Beautiful piece but looks later than Zand to me more like Qajar lot of European influence in the motifs.

[rand]

Originally Posted by ward

Talking about Zand dynasty Fath Ali Shah was worse read up on him al ittle courtiers were afraid to go near him he had a habit of knocking their teeth out with his hiheel shoe if he was in a bad mood then they were supposed to thank him afterward.
Beautiful piece but looks later than Zand to me more like Qajar lot of European influence in the motifs.

Am in agreement with you about the dagger looking later than Zand Dynasty and that the European influence appears more of a 19th C. Qajar style, thats why am asking for opinions of what the date is on the handle.

At the same time am will to accept the date 1200 if that is what it is.

Thanks,
rand

[ALEX]

Rand,
I could be wrong, but I read 1120. I do not think the last right digit is zero, as it has a decorative dot in the center, just like other decorative circles, and appears slightly off center to be part of the date.
"120" is positioned in the center of the panel.
The theme (and dagger's condition) are not typical for mid Safavid period dagger (1708) though

[Gavin Nugent]

I don't have anything to offer up here other than I am looking for mr moustache in what volumes I have access to but I would like to say this is most interesting posting with one of the highest quality arms I have seen in a very long time. Thanks for posting.

Gav

[rand]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rand,
I could be wrong, but I read 1120. I do not think the last right digit is zero, as it has a decorative dot in the center, just like other decorative circles, and appears slightly off center to be part of the date.
"120" is positioned in the center of the panel.
The theme (and dagger's condition) are not typical for mid Safavid period dagger (1708) though

Thank you for your opinion Alex,

I also agree with you that this dagger would not be correctly placed in 1708, the style of Persian art then just did not reflect the European influence as it did during the Qajar rule. Also agree that the flower/dot is a decorative motif and not a number. The shape under that flower/dot is what is in question, so the first two numbers would read 1-2-then zeros via absence of a number, or a six or a one.

rand

[ALEX]

As omitting a leading/first digit is common, and it's always the first digit, and always "1". Now, the rest three digits are in the center of a shape: "1", "2", and... "0", which also can be 5, as Arabic circle is "5" (the dot is "0"). It's hard to tell whether the dot or circle is depicted. I actually think it's a circle, hence 125, but it does not make much difference , and I think that the shape under that circle is decoration, not a digit. Hope I make any sense, Rand:-)
Here is another example: at the very bottom, where the gold is washed away, the date reads 113, i.e. 1113 = 1701 (just one year short of 17th Century:-)

[rand]

Hi Alex,

Thank you for that explanation and the follow-up photo. When you say a number off center will not be part of a date, is that all the time?

Have added new close-up, hope it helps make easeir to see. It appears to be a diamond shape, then a one, then a two...... Am starting to agree that the reverse "C" shape to the two's right under the circular flower is part of the decoration and not a number.

rand

[ward]

Closeup makes a big difference it reads 1265 = 1848
Big classical revival in Persia art at that time especally
in weapons making and also more Euro influence. You can see this on scrolls at top of hilt and also poses of people. Wouldnt find this much in earlier period like Zand

[ALEX]

Yes, that closeup changes everything:-) It does look like 1265. Strange the digits are not aligned with 6 being "dropped". How common or uncommon this would be? Usually they're depicted in-line.
Good point Ward, 1848 does match the style.

[rand]

Ward and Alex,

Thank you for your opinions, the possibility of the six in the date is what triggered my search for opinions and could make the date read 1260 (1842).
The digit you are viewing as a circle, hence the number five, is very probably a repeated flower used in the floral decoration. It seems the mid 19th century date more likely for this dagger than the late 18th century date, but like to keep an open mind as only standing up to the test of time do we then perceive things to be accepted as fact.

Am curious what your opinion of the diamond shape just to the left of the two is. Are those not normally a zero.

Appreciate your opinions,

rand

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by rand

...Am curious what your opinion of the diamond shape just to the left of the two is. Are those not normally a zero.

Rand, the diamond shape is left to the "one". and I am almost certain it is a shape, not a number. What Ward stated, i.e. 1265 is good, and perhaps the best estimate. Strange the numbers do not appear in-line, but may be it was the artist's way to "spice-up" the scene... and it does look good indeed!

[Dom]

and me, every time confusing
2 and 3
between writing and printed form

but I'm please to 've found the 2 last digits

à +

Dom