true or false: most viking blades where frankish

chevalier · 23rd September 2008, 12:54 AM

id always thought viking swords had been locally forged until recently when i read somewhere that most norse/danish/swedish viking blades where actually frankish in origin.

is this true?

celtan · 23rd September 2008, 03:45 AM

I don't know about that, but I know they made swords in Galicia, which they called Jakobsland, with iron from the local mines...
Regards
M

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

id always thought viking swords had been locally forged until recently when i read somewhere that most norse/danish/swedish viking blades where actually frankish in origin.

is this true?

You really are quite a professor Chevalier!!

At first glance the question seems simplistic, but 'doing the homework' on this was not only intriguing but there are of course certain complexities. Like most broad questions, I think the best answer is...primarily sword blades in the Viking Age (c.750-1100 AD) were products of various smiths in the Rhine regions (where the huge swordblade machine of Solingen evolved), thus the lands of the Franks.

There is considerable focus on the 'names' or possibly trademarks found on many of the blades, prevalent as 'ULFBERHT' and 'INGELRI'. That these appeared in such variation in spelling and application, and over such an extended period, suggests that while these might have been names, the continued use of these may have been much in the sense of using well established names as quality indicators.

It seems that as has typically been the case, hilting was often done locally, and using imported blades from Frankish smiths. In the deep ancestry of commercialism, the practice of inlaying inscriptions of names and varied wording and symbols became common during Charlemagne's time. That there was considerable export of these blades is evident when Carolingian rulers did attempt to forbid supplying thier present or potential enemies with these highly sought products.

The fact that these blades are found in such wide scope geographically is simply that they were indeed exported to Viking armourers, who hilted them in the fashion of the region or time. In addition, the Vikings who carried them of course took them to many areas in thier well known activities. I think the single exception I can think of might be in the case of Norway, and possibly others, where smaller edged weapons were indeed made locally, and as in the case of the sax or scramasax where these gradually evolved into sword length single edge blades.

As Manuel has noted, there was blade making industry in the Celtiberean regions, which did evolve into production of the magnificent blades of Toledo and of other Spanish centers, but these blades are not normally associated with known Viking swords as far as I know. I believe however, that the metal forging secrets of the Moors were in degree carried into the Frankish regions from these centers, and wonder if this may have supplanted the pattern welded blades with the strong forged steel of these regions in about the 9th century.

I think it is interesting that the history of these early weapons reveals in so many ways the perspective that the fundamentals of those times are actually so simillar to present times.

All best regards,
Jim

celtan · 23rd September 2008, 11:24 PM

Howdy Jim et Chevaliere,

I understand the Arabs were able to develop such nice blades in Spain because they took advantage ot the renowned and world acclaimed metallurgical arts that had been developed by Celts and Iberians.

Remember how the romans adopted the celtic spata and turned it into their gladivs hispaniensis?. Also the spanish falcata, a local version of the greek kopis used in both the carthaginian and greek colonies in Spain, was the terror of the legionaries. In fact, spanish mercenaries serving in the roman armies kept on using them when they were taken to conquer England.

The arabs were great at developing and adapting for their own use the ideas and techniques they found in their road to conquest, but not terribly original otherwise.

Regards

M

chevalier · 24th September 2008, 01:35 AM

i was about to say the same thing celtan just said. the arabs where known to have highly desired frankish swords above their own weapons (the only reason i can guess for this was that the frankish weapons where of better quality) and i think that is wy the carolingians forbade their export (at least to their biggest enemy, the abbasid/omyyad caliphates)

chevalier · 24th September 2008, 01:43 AM

i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect.

also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

celtan · 24th September 2008, 02:31 AM

Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs.

One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships.

Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")...

During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual.

In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently...

"Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho"
Don Quixote

Well, let's go back to issues germane...

: )

[chevalier]

...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

Lee · 25th September 2008, 01:51 AM

I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality.

My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion.

I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture.

Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds.

Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

Ed · 25th September 2008, 01:37 PM

Seems like that small sample issue again.

celtan · 25th September 2008, 01:46 PM

There's a veddy intedestink little book, very nice to read, called "The archeology of weapons", by Oakeshott. If willing to read a little more on the subject, check page 143.

You're warned, the book is good, you may not be able to stop reading...

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality.

My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion.

I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture.

Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds.

Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

There's a veddy intedestink little book, very nice to read, called "The archeology of weapons", by Oakeshott. If willing to read a little more on the subject, check page 143.

You're warned, the book is good, you may not be able to stop reading...

: )

LOL! That truly is a 'veddy interesting little book' !

Actually it was the very first book on weapons I ever owned, I think it was back in 1965 (the book was published in '62). It really is very good, and unleashed a lifelong passion for me.
Another wonderful book on this subject is "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Pierce (copyright 2002, Lee A. Jones, Ewart Oakeshott, and Ian Pierce).
Lee was instrumental in producing this outstanding reference, in addition to authoring two of the key chapters.
Actually I knew of Lee's important work on Viking weapons before I actually met him years later, due to the important article he wrote in 1997, "The Serpent in the Sword: Pattern Welding in Early Medieval Swords".

I hope we will see some more discussion on these fantastic weapons...which truly are addicting!!

Jeff Pringle · 29th September 2008, 05:39 AM

I think much of the older ideas on this subject are being overwritten, but with a hefty grant one could compare trace element analyses of metal and slag inclusions (via non-invasive XRF or similar) between swords and smelting sites, and get a rather definitive answer.
These two papers are just the tip of the current research iceberg:

Indigenous and imported Viking Age weapons in Norway, a problem with European implications
Martens, Irmelin
http://www.archaeometry.dk/Jern/Mart...plications.pdf

The Vlfberht sword blades reevaluated
ANNE STALSBERG
http://jenny-rita.org/Annestamanus.pdf

Pukka Bundook · 29th September 2008, 03:21 PM

Jeff,

I haven't had time yet to read your links, (computer's Slow!) but just wanted to say that If Norse blades were imported, as it is generally believed, and If English blades were also imported as many believe, then the source of supply for these blades appears to have been initially different.

To quote H. E Davidson;

"So far, no pattern -welded blades from Scandanavia have appeared which are as early in date as the earliest Anglo-Saxon and continental finds."
(Sword in A-S England, p31)

Since not much evidence has been forthcoming for blades being made in England, (Unless that's what your link is about Jeff!)
It would seem that English blades were mostly "Frankish" but of a higher quality than those "exported" to Scandanavia.

Speaking of the pattern-welded sword from Eley fields, Myron pointed out;

I do not know of finer smiths' work any-where at any time"
(Davidson, p 29)

So, as a recap, it seems if norse blades were imported, the source was somewht different to that of A-Saxon England, at least in the earlier period.

Please forgive me not going to your link yet!
I will, ...and might have to revise my post accordingly!

Best wishes,

Richard.

23rd September 2008, 12:54 AM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	true or false: most viking blades where frankish id always thought viking swords had been locally forged until recently when i read somewhere that most norse/danish/swedish viking blades where actually frankish in origin. is this true?

25th September 2008, 01:51 AM	#8
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	My suspicions... I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality. My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion. I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture. Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds. Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

23rd September 2008, 03:45 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I don't know about that, but I know they made swords in Galicia, which they called Jakobsland, with iron from the local mines... Regards M

23rd September 2008, 11:24 PM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Howdy Jim et Chevaliere, I understand the Arabs were able to develop such nice blades in Spain because they took advantage ot the renowned and world acclaimed metallurgical arts that had been developed by Celts and Iberians. Remember how the romans adopted the celtic spata and turned it into their gladivs hispaniensis?. Also the spanish falcata, a local version of the greek kopis used in both the carthaginian and greek colonies in Spain, was the terror of the legionaries. In fact, spanish mercenaries serving in the roman armies kept on using them when they were taken to conquer England. The arabs were great at developing and adapting for their own use the ideas and techniques they found in their road to conquest, but not terribly original otherwise. Regards M

24th September 2008, 01:35 AM	#5
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i was about to say the same thing celtan just said. the arabs where known to have highly desired frankish swords above their own weapons (the only reason i can guess for this was that the frankish weapons where of better quality) and i think that is wy the carolingians forbade their export (at least to their biggest enemy, the abbasid/omyyad caliphates)

24th September 2008, 01:43 AM	#6
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect. also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

24th September 2008, 02:31 AM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs. One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships. Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")... During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual. In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently... "Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho" Don Quixote Well, let's go back to issues germane... : ) [chevalier] ...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

25th September 2008, 01:37 PM	#9
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Seems like that small sample issue again.

29th September 2008, 05:39 AM	#12
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I think much of the older ideas on this subject are being overwritten, but with a hefty grant one could compare trace element analyses of metal and slag inclusions (via non-invasive XRF or similar) between swords and smelting sites, and get a rather definitive answer. These two papers are just the tip of the current research iceberg: Indigenous and imported Viking Age weapons in Norway, a problem with European implications Martens, Irmelin http://www.archaeometry.dk/Jern/Mart...plications.pdf The Vlfberht sword blades reevaluated ANNE STALSBERG http://jenny-rita.org/Annestamanus.pdf

29th September 2008, 03:21 PM	#13
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jeff, I haven't had time yet to read your links, (computer's Slow!) but just wanted to say that If Norse blades were imported, as it is generally believed, and If English blades were also imported as many believe, then the source of supply for these blades appears to have been initially different. To quote H. E Davidson; "So far, no pattern -welded blades from Scandanavia have appeared which are as early in date as the earliest Anglo-Saxon and continental finds." (Sword in A-S England, p31) Since not much evidence has been forthcoming for blades being made in England, (Unless that's what your link is about Jeff!) It would seem that English blades were mostly "Frankish" but of a higher quality than those "exported" to Scandanavia. Speaking of the pattern-welded sword from Eley fields, Myron pointed out; I do not know of finer smiths' work any-where at any time" (Davidson, p 29) So, as a recap, it seems if norse blades were imported, the source was somewht different to that of A-Saxon England, at least in the earlier period. Please forgive me not going to your link yet! I will, ...and might have to revise my post accordingly! Best wishes, Richard.