Ram's Head sword Help

Clubs & Arrows · 16th September 2008, 01:31 PM

Hello,
These were included in a collection that I picked up recently, and I was wondering where they're from, and if they're tourist or not. The sword with multiple Ram's heads measures just under 29" in overall length with the blade measuring 24 3/4" of the total measurement. the single Ram's head sword is 25" overall, with the blade accounting for 20 3/4" of the measurement. I normally collect Pacific Island arms, so these swords are a little beyond my knowledge.

Thank you for any help,
Joe

Rich · 16th September 2008, 03:01 PM

A bit strange indeed. Don't know what they are, but look a bit like a cross between a shotel and a shamshir or tulwar. Interesting.

Rich

ariel · 16th September 2008, 07:53 PM

Just look at my avatar ....
Laz Shamshir?

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2008, 01:01 AM

These items are most interesting, and seem like relatively modern representations of earlier weapons, but probably more intended for possibly parade or ceremonial use. The rams head pommel application is one of a number of zoomorphic hilts of India, in this case termed 'meshamukhi' (lit. =sheep head) noted briefly in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour, p.113).

These seem used on tulwar hilts from late 17th century into the 18th, but this cast example is much later, probably 19th c. It seems that the rams head was quite popular in Rajasthan and in E. Jaiwent Paul (p.138 and p.140, "Arms and Armour:Traditional Weapons of India") examples of rams head hilts are shown, one from Jaipur (Rajasthan). Apparantly the ram symbolism is prevalent in not only India but into ancient lore extending to the Celts and other groups.

The double rams head representations on the dramatically recurved bladed swords seem historically motivated with the hilt design recalling that of the chilanum daggers, which in turn seem to recall ancient anthromorphic hilts from as early as the Hallstadt culture. The rams heads paired again seems to suggest ceremonial intent, and the recurved blades suggest those that we have discussed as 'Black Sea yataghan/Laz bicagi" which derive from 19th century Turkish regions, and Ottoman influence.
These are definitely unique, which is why I dont believe they would be for tourist appeal, but more carrying historic symbolism for either parade or ceremonial use, and more modern.

katana · 17th September 2008, 01:23 AM

The double headed hilt form is very similar to the Celtic hilt form and reminds me of this thread.....
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....... Apparantly the ram symbolism is prevalent in not only India but into ancient lore extending to the Celts and other groups.

Coincidence ??

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2008, 04:02 AM

Bingo!!! Nicely done David, thats exactly what I was thinking of.

It seems like there have been many atavistic resurgences of weapon styles and forms in ethnographic weapons in various cultures, but India seems to often be a case in point. The presence of ancient weapon forms occur in so many examples, and the chilanum has always reminded me of these symmetrical anthromorphic forms from Celts to the Scythians, which of course are key in early Indian history.

Even the dramatic recurved blade here that we know so well in shape from the Laz bichagi (BSY) seems to recall the ancient recurved blade of the scramasax of Hallstadt (Burton, p.263).

These weapons are not 'reproductions' in the true sense, but when intended for ceremonial or 'revival' type use, seem more inclined to utilize these classical forms. This is my opinion or perspective on these, and I always look forward to hearing those of others.

Thanks very much David

All the best,
Jim

16th September 2008, 01:31 PM	#1
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Ram's Head sword Help Hello, These were included in a collection that I picked up recently, and I was wondering where they're from, and if they're tourist or not. The sword with multiple Ram's heads measures just under 29" in overall length with the blade measuring 24 3/4" of the total measurement. the single Ram's head sword is 25" overall, with the blade accounting for 20 3/4" of the measurement. I normally collect Pacific Island arms, so these swords are a little beyond my knowledge. Thank you for any help, Joe Attached Images

16th September 2008, 03:01 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	A bit strange indeed. Don't know what they are, but look a bit like a cross between a shotel and a shamshir or tulwar. Interesting. Rich Last edited by Rich; 16th September 2008 at 10:18 PM.

16th September 2008, 07:53 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just look at my avatar .... Laz Shamshir?

17th September 2008, 01:01 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	These items are most interesting, and seem like relatively modern representations of earlier weapons, but probably more intended for possibly parade or ceremonial use. The rams head pommel application is one of a number of zoomorphic hilts of India, in this case termed 'meshamukhi' (lit. =sheep head) noted briefly in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour, p.113). These seem used on tulwar hilts from late 17th century into the 18th, but this cast example is much later, probably 19th c. It seems that the rams head was quite popular in Rajasthan and in E. Jaiwent Paul (p.138 and p.140, "Arms and Armour:Traditional Weapons of India") examples of rams head hilts are shown, one from Jaipur (Rajasthan). Apparantly the ram symbolism is prevalent in not only India but into ancient lore extending to the Celts and other groups. The double rams head representations on the dramatically recurved bladed swords seem historically motivated with the hilt design recalling that of the chilanum daggers, which in turn seem to recall ancient anthromorphic hilts from as early as the Hallstadt culture. The rams heads paired again seems to suggest ceremonial intent, and the recurved blades suggest those that we have discussed as 'Black Sea yataghan/Laz bicagi" which derive from 19th century Turkish regions, and Ottoman influence. These are definitely unique, which is why I dont believe they would be for tourist appeal, but more carrying historic symbolism for either parade or ceremonial use, and more modern.

17th September 2008, 04:02 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Bingo!!! Nicely done David, thats exactly what I was thinking of. It seems like there have been many atavistic resurgences of weapon styles and forms in ethnographic weapons in various cultures, but India seems to often be a case in point. The presence of ancient weapon forms occur in so many examples, and the chilanum has always reminded me of these symmetrical anthromorphic forms from Celts to the Scythians, which of course are key in early Indian history. Even the dramatic recurved blade here that we know so well in shape from the Laz bichagi (BSY) seems to recall the ancient recurved blade of the scramasax of Hallstadt (Burton, p.263). These weapons are not 'reproductions' in the true sense, but when intended for ceremonial or 'revival' type use, seem more inclined to utilize these classical forms. This is my opinion or perspective on these, and I always look forward to hearing those of others. Thanks very much David All the best, Jim