Medieval hand cannons -- asian?

[Ed]

My interests have gotten rather more catholic over the past few years than less, I fear.

One area that has really gotten my attention is that of ancient firearms. I've always been a fancier of Mons Meg (but then, who isn't?) but I have become more interested in smaller objects.

European hand firearms are amply represented in museums as you can see here:

These from Leeds.

Now, I have come across a number of examples that look like this:


European? Asian?

I have to tell you that there are any number of objects just like those in the second picture in European museums.

Interesting area, no?

[katana]

Interesting topic Ed ,

These pictures are from a manuscript produced between 1495 and 1515. It shows the artillery of the Habsburg monarch, Kaiser Maximilian I

Regards David

[Ed]

bump for our expanded readership.

[migueldiaz]

Hi Ed and David,

Interesting topic, thanks!

At the West Point Museum, I snapped this pic of a 19th century Filipino hand cannon. Kindly note that in its description, the design supposedly dates back to the 15th century.

We will note also that the Filipino hand cannon's design is very much similar to one of the pics David posted above (and posted again below).

The first Europeans landed in the Philippines in the 1500s (starting with Ferdinand Magellan in 1521). Assuming that the hand cannon design originated from Europe, then the usage of the hand cannon by Filipinos may have started as early the mid-1500s.

On the other hand since gunpowder must have first been invented in China, it may also be possible that the development of the hand cannon of the type pictured below was Asian in origin.

The other type of hand cannon that was extensively used in southern Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia was the lantaka. Its photo appears at the bottom, below.

Regards.

[Ed]

Thank you for your thoughts.

An incorrect assumption is that Iron was not worked at an early date in China and that any barrel that is of iron would, necessarily, have to have been made in Europe. This is wrong as I discovered in conversations with various folks who have expertise in eastern technology.

The identification of these sorts of barrels remains an open question.

[Ed]

The illustration is from an early work on Chinese military matters. The forms ore identicle to those seen on weapons identified as european.

Trade, perhaps? But from where to where?

[katana]

Interesting picture Ed,
the 'rings' on the cannon ......re-inforcement, 'cooling' fins or perhaps duel purpose .....I wonder ???

Regards David

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Ed

Thank you for your thoughts.

An incorrect assumption is that Iron was not worked at an early date in China and that any barrel that is of iron would, necessarily, have to have been made in Europe. This is wrong as I discovered in conversations with various folks who have expertise in eastern technology.

The identification of these sorts of barrels remains an open question.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the comments.

Yes, it looks like the Chinese started with a bamboo cannon (early 12th century), and not a metal one.

However, the Chinese quickly 'graduated' to a metal-barreled cannon by the late 12th century --

"Gunpower: Along with the silk and paper, gunpowder is another invention by Chinese and the Silk Road helped it spread to the west. The dating of gunpowder is as early as 850 A.D. ... The gunpowder used for military purpose was first recorded in 919 A.D. By the 11th century, explosive bombs filled with gunpowder and fired from catapults were introduced and used in China. The words "fire cannon", "rocket", "missile" and "fireball" appeared time and again in the official Song history as well as two other books written during the same period. The first detailed description of using "firing cannon" in warfare was in connection with a battle fought in 1126 when the Song army used it against the invading Nuchens. The so-called fire cannon was a tube made of bamboo filled with gunpowder which, when fired, threw a flaming missile towards the enemy ... According to a description of a battle scene in 1132, it took two persons to carry a "fire cannon" ...

"The early account of gunpowder in Europe was recorded by English philosopher Roger Bacon in the 13th century. One century later the Arabs used it to attack the Spanish town Baza and the very next year in 1326 Florence ordered the manufacturing of cannon and cannon balls. From Italy the making of gunpowder soon spread to other European countries, and by the 1350s it had become an effective weapon on the battlefield.

"Origin of Gun: The Chinese adapted their primitive catapults to eventually develop a true gun with a metal barrel, gunpowder and a projectile by the 12th century. It is believed that the first gun was found in the early 1970s at Pan-la-ch'eng-tzu village, Manchuria, and dated to around 1290 A.D."

The picture below are samples of the earliest cannons of ancient China.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by katana

Interesting picture Ed, the 'rings' on the cannon ......re-inforcement, 'cooling' fins or perhaps duel purpose .....I wonder ???

Ed, interesting image indeed.

David, the rings would appear to me as reinforcements primarily.

And I believe it's because the ancient Chinese cannons and European cannons must have shared the same construction methodology -- the barrel was made from several thick slats of metal, then bound together with rings.

In fact the word "barrel" [of a gun or cannon] is a very descriptive term, historically -- a gun barrel then was made in a very similar fashion vis-a-vis how a barrel [container] was made.

[migueldiaz]

This must have been the very first hand cannon ever --

"The oldest extant cannon that we have is a bronze cannon from the Yuan dynasty, with an inscription dated 1332. It is 35.3cm long, with a calibre of 10.5cm and a weight of 6.94kg. The inscription also tells us that it was cannon number 300 in its frontier guard unit, showing that such cannons were manufactured and deployed in large numbers."

The full article can be found here.

[fearn]

There's a wikipedia article that talks about early Chinese gunpowder technology, and it includes a picture of the Yuan Dynasty handgun dated to 1298 CE. According to the article, the oldest evidence for a Chinese cannon is from a stone sculpture dated 1128 CE.

One thing that's interesting is that the article also talks about the predecssors of guns: bamboo (later metal) fire lances that burned gunpowder and sprayed poison, bits of ceramic, or whatever out the front. The step from a barrel shoving burning material in someone's face to spraying things to a gun is pretty direct, and for once, it looks like the weapons evolved in a fairly linear fashion, rather than the discontinuous mode we're used to seeing.

My 0.002 yuan,

F

[Bill M]

Miguel,

The last cannon you pictured is a Lantaka. In fact a crocodile version. Looks quite nice. can't tell from the quality of picture if it was made as a fighting cannon, or a trade piece.

I have some of these going back to the late 1500s to early 1600s, but though I have some of the "seahorse" ornamented, I don't have a crocodile.

Do you have any other pictures of it?

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Miguel,

The last cannon you pictured is a Lantaka. In fact a crocodile version. Looks quite nice. can't tell from the quality of picture if it was made as a fighting cannon, or a trade piece.

I have some of these going back to the late 1500s to early 1600s, but though I have some of the "seahorse" ornamented, I don't have a crocodile.

Do you have any other pictures of it?

Hi Bill,

Kindly refer to this LINK for more pics. The piece is described at that site as:

PERSONAL BRONZE LANTAKA CANNON

Swivel Gun Early1900's!

Known as a personal cannon, the Lantaka was popular in the East Indies starting in the 16 th Century, where they were mounted on small ships as swivel guns, and also considered a form of currency. They were not only intended for use as weapons, but were admired for their beauty.

Presented is a cast bronze cannon of a traditional Lantaka with a flared barrel at the front. It is decidedly Indonesian in design with raised floral and geometric designs at the front and rear. It has a yoke and pin which makes it a swivel gun for use on the bulwark of a ship. The extension at the rear was to insert a wooden stock in the hollow tube for aiming. Its proportions follow that of a ship's long gun.

USE: It is of the type of weapon that was used as a presentation piece, for personal protection in close in fighting, as a signaling device, or as a form of currency in earlier times. When this cannon was cast, its use was strictly as that of currency and to enhance the importance and prestige of its owner.

CONDITION: The cannon has sight front and rear, and a rich dark, patina with green overtones. The trunnions are cast as part of the barrel which is traditional. There are no mold marks, but there are the classic Indonesian floral and geometric designs enhanced by the desirable figure of an alligator above the pivot point. On each side is a cast in place VOC cartouche on the sides behind the alligator. VOC was the sign of the Dutch East India Company. The touch hole has a rim around it and is clear to the bore which runs the length of the barrel. There is a fracture around the casting at the breech.

This fine example of a Lantaka is being sold for display purposes only, and no attempt should be made to fire it. There is an old fracture at the breech.

DIMENSIONS: 24 3/4" LOA x 2 5/8“ W at breech, 1 3/4" at first band
Bore 11/16" WEIGHT: 28 lbs

HISTORY: Usually the better quality miniature personal cannons were cast in Holland, Europe and England starting in the 1600's. These were finer in detail, design, and quality then those that were made in the Spice Islands. They were intended as a presentation piece, for personal protection in close in fighting, as a signaling device, or as a form of currency. The quality of this casting indicates that its origin was in Indonesia from where it was likely made in the first quarter of the 20th Century.

Yup, I knew it was a lantaka

However, I thought that being one of the small versions, such lantaka also served the purpose of being a 'hand cannon', in a loose sense that is.

Best regards.

[Bill M]

Thank you Miguel for the link and information.

These did range in size from small to large. I have them from 24" like the one you posted up to about five feet and 300 pounds.

Though some of the smaller ones were used as hand cannons, most were used as swivel or rail guns and mounted on boats.

I have read (somewhere) that some of the smaller Lantakas were cut down to make the breech end more portable. These were sometimes hand -held and used to blow down an enemy's door.

Thank you for bringing these cannons up. Fascinating subject.

You are a welcome member to the Forum. Let me know if I can be of service in helping you collect.

[Ed]

I have heard that there is a thriving business in faking these things. Anyone know the story?

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Thank you Miguel for the link and information ... You are a welcome member to the Forum. Let me know if I can be of service in helping you collect.

Hi Bill!

Am glad you found the link useful.

Thanks for the warm welcome! And thanks too for the offer to help in starting my collection. I will certainly request for your kind assistance one of these days.

Thanks again!

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Ed

I have heard that there is a thriving business in faking these things. Anyone know the story?

I have heard the same.

Many were made as fighting guns. Others were made for "trade" or used as currency and bride prices. Some are just junk. Sending you a PM