"tears of the wounded" swords...

chevalier · 25th August 2008, 08:30 AM

im referring to swords with small metal balls or beads that roll back and forth in their fullers. they seem to be widespread in asia as ive seen examples from persia, china and india. they where called "tears of the wounded" in india and i forgot what they where called in china. i still have no idea what the purpose of the beads/balls serve.............

Queequeg · 25th August 2008, 08:44 AM

chevalier,

The popular explanation is that, like the "steel apples" on European blades, the balls add a bit of momentum via centrifugal force by sliding forward during a swing.

More about these:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...hlight=chevron

Apparently there is debate on whether or not these balls actually serve a practical or decorative purpose.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted

Hope this helps in some way.

ariel · 25th August 2008, 12:37 PM

I guess that the mechanical purpose would only be fulfilled if the cut-outs went almost all the way to the point and the balls were of a substantial weight. A little jiggling at the ricasso would not be effective. I remember some quaddaras with a thin string going along the 3-5 inch long slit in the middle of the blade and tiny plastic( coral?) beads on it. Obviously decorative.

Pukka Bundook · 25th August 2008, 04:22 PM

Jens knows more about this than I ever will, but i'd say decorative,...just to show what can be done by a clever fellow making a blade.

Now, if it's Momentum you want, a small hole drilled in the blade near the tip, with a short chain, and a lump of lead attached............(!)
(but wouldn't it play havoc with the handling?!)

Lew · 25th August 2008, 05:31 PM

I think it was mostly hype in the heat of battle with hundreds of swords and shields clanging about I doubt you would be able to hear the sound of the sword. I did see an example of a Roman spear head that had a hole purposely punched through it so when thrown it would make a whistling sound that would strike fear in the enemy ranks.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2008, 07:44 PM

This is truly a fascinating topic, and it has developed some great discussions over the years. Jens does indeed have the key knowledge on this somewhat mysterious feature, but pending his notes I wanted to say what I can recall.

This feature is of course entirely decorative, and Philip Tom suggested that the open channels holding these 'pearls' or bearings would ultimately compromise the integrity of the blade, therefore noted that these swords were probably parade or ceremonial in purpose.

The sound making effect is also likely associated with jingles and rattles as often seen in the votive weapons of temples and associated with religious ceremony, particularly in Buddhist and Hindu tradition. The pierced fretwork on the blade supports of Hindu khandas and firangi may represent the holes that were often on ceremonial weapons to attach jingles and various festoons also important as protection from evil and demons during these proceedings.

I recall some research years ago concerning a weight and sliding ball allegedly being part of a huge claymore acting to enhance the force of cut on the weapon. This clearly romanticized notion I found had appeared in some other 'heroic' literature, but research and discussions revealed no useful purpose for such a feature , in fact seemed quite the contrary, with a sliding weight most likely to pull the sword right out of the wielders hands. I think my first clue should have been the writers description of the weight being of ten pounds! on a claymore that would have been ludicrous!
While I found some reference to 'steel apples' on European blades (I believe that term and description was in a book on the Bowie knife, and fell along with the use of meteoric iron in fashioning 'the Iron Mistress') I have not ever discovered supported evidence of blades with sliding weights. This mysterious concept even appeared in the bizarre case of the 'Hollow Sword Company' where these blades allegedly contained mercury intended to move in the direction of the cut, within the blade for ostensibly the same purpose.

The closely connected spheres of Persia, India and China are the only soundly repesented instances I found of this feature, and its purpose seems to have been primarily apotropaic followed by traditional symbolism.

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I think it was mostly hype in the heat of battle with hundreds of swords and shields clanging about I doubt you would be able to hear the sound of the sword. I did see an example of a Roman spear head that had a hole purposely punched through it so when thrown it would make a whistling sound that would strike fear in the enemy ranks.

Lew

Psychological warfare was used far more than realized by many. The same whistling concept was found in India, where tribesmen notched thier bullets to achieve the same effect. Arrows were often altered to also accomplish the fearsome sounds that weakened the resolve of the enemy.

Concerning the sounds of battle, I think the most resounding descriptions I have ever seen were in Keegan's "The Face of Battle". In this,describing Waterloo, and the horrendous carnage of this epic battle,it notes the constant din of bullets clanging against armor cuirasses, sword blades and helmets against so many other sounds that would accompany the clash of thousands of combatants fighting to the death.

Andrew · 26th August 2008, 01:20 AM

Here's a good thread on this topic from the "Classics":

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=tears

Jens Nordlunde · 26th August 2008, 05:19 PM

Swords with ’tears of the wounded’/’tears of the inflicted’ have been made in several countries, in India they were often made in connection with a chevron pattern blade. In few the bearings were pearls, which would have been rather unpractical, as pearls are very soft, and would soon be worn to a smaller size and they would fall out of the fuller. I have heard of rubies used, but only in daggers, and that would make sence when it comes to the name, but these types must have been court weapons only. Someone told me, long ago, that the swords with steel/lead balls were used in battles, they may have been, and they may not have been used. I can’t say, other than most of there swords are stronger than one would think. The sound when you swing such a sword is like very heavy rain outside, ’Shhhh’ (not translated into English

), so it would not be heard in a battle.

The chevron patter on a blade can be made in two ways, either the chevrons are made in wax, and the blade is etched. This is not regarded as being a ’real’ chevron blade, as the hole blade is watered. The other way to do it is to make the chevrons one by one, first using watered steel, and the next by using mono steel, and in the end forge them together. The last method is, of course, much more difficult, and so much more expensive.

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2008, 05:34 AM

I forgot about the chevron pattern Jens. I seem to recall something about the dark and light coloring of the alternating chevrons representing the two key rivers in India, Ganges and Yumaji(?)
I think the tears of the wounded concept applied in Chinese swords was from imported swords or diplomatic gifts from Safavid Persia or Mughal India.

I still wonder what that description is intended to mean, tears of the wounded (or afflicted?).

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 27th August 2008, 01:25 PM

Ganga-Jamni. When gold and silver are used together in a decoration, is called Ganga-Jamni. It is supposed to imitate the manner in which the muddy stream of the Ganges and the pure waters of the Jumna flow for some time together, side-by-side, but unmixed, at their junction below the fort at Allahabad.

I don’t know if the two different colours on the chevron blades have the same meaning, or if the meaning is different.

ward · 27th August 2008, 05:17 PM

Only seen terars of the wounded with metal balls I think they're just deocrative maybe to show the smith's skill

Ward

Bill M · 28th August 2008, 01:42 AM

The few swords I have seen with these balls had very small balls, only a few mm in diameter. Less than 1/8th inch. Certainly not enough to affect the swinging of the blade. The channels in which they rode -- though small -- would seem to affect the integrity of the blade.

I seem to remember a similar conversation with Phillip Tom.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th August 2008, 01:44 PM

I once did measure one of the steel balls, and it measured 4 mm in diameter. What I don’t know is, if the original diameter was bigger, and the ball has been worn, not do I know if the number of balls were the same in the different sword blades having the tears of the wounded.

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2008, 06:39 PM

Many European rapier blades and dagger blades had various piercings, which dont seem to have impaired the integrity of the blades, so perhaps the idea's merit is unlikely.

Bill M · 28th August 2008, 06:51 PM

Jim,

This is may be correct, however, and I am running on memory here, the "piercings" I saw in these "tears" swords could be a channel in the blade, sometimes two parallel channels that were about 5 -6 inches long by 4 or 5mm wide.

Personally, I'd be a little concerned if I had to wield such a blade in battle, but, of course I'd rather be on a hilltop with a sniper rifle anyway!

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2008, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Jim,

This is may be correct, however, and I am running on memory here, the "piercings" I saw in these "tears" swords could be a channel in the blade, sometimes two parallel channels that were about 5 -6 inches long by 4 or 5mm wide.

Personally, I'd be a little concerned if I had to wield such a blade in battle, but, of course I'd rather be on a hilltop with a sniper rifle anyway!

Thanks for answering Bill. You're right, these were channels, and Philip Tom did make the suggestion it seems at some point that these would have a compromising effect on the blades integrity. However, it should be remembered as well that wootz blades did gain a certain disfavor as in combat they were prone to breaking as opposed to forged blades, if I understand the matallurgists correctly. For these reasons, the court, parade and presentation swords typically received the luxurious blades.

On the sniper rifle, saw a good movie on that last week.."the Shooter".

kronckew · 29th August 2008, 09:45 AM

as an engineer, i can look at a sword blade as a cantilever beam, supported on one end, and loaded at the impact point, ie. the 'sweet spot' nearer to the unsupported end.

this places the spine of the blade in compression, and the edge in tension.

somewhere between the spine and the edge is a neutral point that is neither in compression or tension, and and cut-outs put along that line, the 'neutral axis' will not affect the mechanical strength of the beam.

it is thus possible to cut a channel in, or even pierce a blade with very little effect on it's strength.

rounded edges in lieu of sharp corners, of course, to avoid stress raisers, and kept to a reasonable size...

calculating this line would be fun tho, the ancient smith would have to have a lot of experience and experimentation with resulting failures to figure it out.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th August 2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

However, it should be remembered as well that wootz blades did gain a certain disfavor as in combat they were prone to breaking as opposed to forged blades, if I understand the matallurgists correctly.

Jim,
I don't know where you have see that wootz blades were likely to break. It is the first time I hear about it, in all the years I have collected.
Kronckew,
This is very interesting. So maybe it is true, what I have been told, that the chevron blades with the tears of the wounded were used in battles.

Richard Furrer · 2nd September 2008, 06:53 AM

I had thought that the Indian slot was in sections of short lengths (each section isolated)..like Jens said, but when I was in India last year I saw Gopilal Banwharlal..a smith in Udaipur...start to drill a hole from the tang toward the tip...in essence the balls could move from tang to tip unobstructed. I asked him why they do the balls and he said that it was tradition and that they can get more money for it....sounded like a good answer to me.

I have yet to do this technique, but it is on the list.

Ric

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd September 2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I had thought that the Indian slot was in sections of short lengths (each section isolated)..like Jens said....

Ric

I don't hope I said that, if I did, I must have been confused

. Like Ric mentions, the slot goes almost through the hole blade, at least when it comes to the type of slots we are discussing here.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 2nd September 2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,
I don't know where you have see that wootz blades were likely to break. It is the first time I hear about it, in all the years I have collected.
Kronckew,
This is very interesting. So maybe it is true, what I have been told, that the chevron blades with the tears of the wounded were used in battles.

Thanks Jens, obviously misstated, and perhaps I can blame desert fatique for trying to recall notes on wootz that I didnt thoroughly understand in the first place!

I think that I might have been thinking of the avoidance of sword to sword combat with shamshirs and wootz blades, but then any blade which had a flaw in its composition would probably fracture in such stress, and the use of the shield to parry might have led my assumption. Thank you for the correction.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd September 2008, 10:45 PM

Don’t loose any sleep about it Jim.

Now, the interesting thing is, that there are ‘tears of the wounded’, and there are ‘tears of the wounded’. Some may know of this, and other may not, but close to the ricasso some of the swords with the tears have slots on each side of the blade. These are only short slots, but they are there, and the balls are there as well.

The interesting thing is, does this have anything to do with the ‘tears’ - who knows? But on other blades you can see small groves in the same place, indicating that there could have been balls in them, had they been slots, and not groves. Sometimes the groves are in connection with three dots at each end.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2008, 03:19 AM

OK Jens, as penance I did some more looking into wootz and found all the information on the 'strength' of the steel, so that was interesting. It is noted however, that the process must be carefully completed to avoid the creation of cementatite and a hopelessly fragile blade.
Naturally, this same result might occur in any type of forging, so I cant be sure where my thoughts came from.

Did we ever figure why the term, tears of afflicted or wounded?

The slots: perhaps to lighten the blade, much as with fullers? and of course for the balls as applicable.

Bill M · 3rd September 2008, 09:06 AM

Pictures, near the end of the link.

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

25th August 2008, 08:30 AM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	"tears of the wounded" swords... im referring to swords with small metal balls or beads that roll back and forth in their fullers. they seem to be widespread in asia as ive seen examples from persia, china and india. they where called "tears of the wounded" in india and i forgot what they where called in china. i still have no idea what the purpose of the beads/balls serve.............

26th August 2008, 05:19 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Swords with ’tears of the wounded’/’tears of the inflicted’ have been made in several countries, in India they were often made in connection with a chevron pattern blade. In few the bearings were pearls, which would have been rather unpractical, as pearls are very soft, and would soon be worn to a smaller size and they would fall out of the fuller. I have heard of rubies used, but only in daggers, and that would make sence when it comes to the name, but these types must have been court weapons only. Someone told me, long ago, that the swords with steel/lead balls were used in battles, they may have been, and they may not have been used. I can’t say, other than most of there swords are stronger than one would think. The sound when you swing such a sword is like very heavy rain outside, ’Shhhh’ (not translated into English), so it would not be heard in a battle. The chevron patter on a blade can be made in two ways, either the chevrons are made in wax, and the blade is etched. This is not regarded as being a ’real’ chevron blade, as the hole blade is watered. The other way to do it is to make the chevrons one by one, first using watered steel, and the next by using mono steel, and in the end forge them together. The last method is, of course, much more difficult, and so much more expensive.

27th August 2008, 05:34 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I forgot about the chevron pattern Jens. I seem to recall something about the dark and light coloring of the alternating chevrons representing the two key rivers in India, Ganges and Yumaji(?) I think the tears of the wounded concept applied in Chinese swords was from imported swords or diplomatic gifts from Safavid Persia or Mughal India. I still wonder what that description is intended to mean, tears of the wounded (or afflicted?). All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th August 2008 at 05:55 AM.

25th August 2008, 08:44 AM	#2
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	chevalier, The popular explanation is that, like the "steel apples" on European blades, the balls add a bit of momentum via centrifugal force by sliding forward during a swing. More about these: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...hlight=chevron Apparently there is debate on whether or not these balls actually serve a practical or decorative purpose. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted Hope this helps in some way.

25th August 2008, 12:37 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess that the mechanical purpose would only be fulfilled if the cut-outs went almost all the way to the point and the balls were of a substantial weight. A little jiggling at the ricasso would not be effective. I remember some quaddaras with a thin string going along the 3-5 inch long slit in the middle of the blade and tiny plastic( coral?) beads on it. Obviously decorative.

25th August 2008, 04:22 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens knows more about this than I ever will, but i'd say decorative,...just to show what can be done by a clever fellow making a blade. Now, if it's Momentum you want, a small hole drilled in the blade near the tip, with a short chain, and a lump of lead attached............(!) (but wouldn't it play havoc with the handling?!)

25th August 2008, 05:31 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I think it was mostly hype in the heat of battle with hundreds of swords and shields clanging about I doubt you would be able to hear the sound of the sword. I did see an example of a Roman spear head that had a hole purposely punched through it so when thrown it would make a whistling sound that would strike fear in the enemy ranks. Lew

25th August 2008, 07:44 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This is truly a fascinating topic, and it has developed some great discussions over the years. Jens does indeed have the key knowledge on this somewhat mysterious feature, but pending his notes I wanted to say what I can recall. This feature is of course entirely decorative, and Philip Tom suggested that the open channels holding these 'pearls' or bearings would ultimately compromise the integrity of the blade, therefore noted that these swords were probably parade or ceremonial in purpose. The sound making effect is also likely associated with jingles and rattles as often seen in the votive weapons of temples and associated with religious ceremony, particularly in Buddhist and Hindu tradition. The pierced fretwork on the blade supports of Hindu khandas and firangi may represent the holes that were often on ceremonial weapons to attach jingles and various festoons also important as protection from evil and demons during these proceedings. I recall some research years ago concerning a weight and sliding ball allegedly being part of a huge claymore acting to enhance the force of cut on the weapon. This clearly romanticized notion I found had appeared in some other 'heroic' literature, but research and discussions revealed no useful purpose for such a feature , in fact seemed quite the contrary, with a sliding weight most likely to pull the sword right out of the wielders hands. I think my first clue should have been the writers description of the weight being of ten pounds! on a claymore that would have been ludicrous! While I found some reference to 'steel apples' on European blades (I believe that term and description was in a book on the Bowie knife, and fell along with the use of meteoric iron in fashioning 'the Iron Mistress') I have not ever discovered supported evidence of blades with sliding weights. This mysterious concept even appeared in the bizarre case of the 'Hollow Sword Company' where these blades allegedly contained mercury intended to move in the direction of the cut, within the blade for ostensibly the same purpose. The closely connected spheres of Persia, India and China are the only soundly repesented instances I found of this feature, and its purpose seems to have been primarily apotropaic followed by traditional symbolism.

26th August 2008, 01:20 AM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Here's a good thread on this topic from the "Classics": http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=tears

27th August 2008, 01:25 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ganga-Jamni. When gold and silver are used together in a decoration, is called Ganga-Jamni. It is supposed to imitate the manner in which the muddy stream of the Ganges and the pure waters of the Jumna flow for some time together, side-by-side, but unmixed, at their junction below the fort at Allahabad. I don’t know if the two different colours on the chevron blades have the same meaning, or if the meaning is different.

27th August 2008, 05:17 PM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Only seen terars of the wounded with metal balls I think they're just deocrative maybe to show the smith's skill Ward

28th August 2008, 01:42 AM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	The few swords I have seen with these balls had very small balls, only a few mm in diameter. Less than 1/8th inch. Certainly not enough to affect the swinging of the blade. The channels in which they rode -- though small -- would seem to affect the integrity of the blade. I seem to remember a similar conversation with Phillip Tom.

28th August 2008, 01:44 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I once did measure one of the steel balls, and it measured 4 mm in diameter. What I don’t know is, if the original diameter was bigger, and the ball has been worn, not do I know if the number of balls were the same in the different sword blades having the tears of the wounded.

28th August 2008, 06:39 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Many European rapier blades and dagger blades had various piercings, which dont seem to have impaired the integrity of the blades, so perhaps the idea's merit is unlikely.

28th August 2008, 06:51 PM	#16
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Jim, This is may be correct, however, and I am running on memory here, the "piercings" I saw in these "tears" swords could be a channel in the blade, sometimes two parallel channels that were about 5 -6 inches long by 4 or 5mm wide. Personally, I'd be a little concerned if I had to wield such a blade in battle, but, of course I'd rather be on a hilltop with a sniper rifle anyway!

29th August 2008, 09:45 AM	#18
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	as an engineer, i can look at a sword blade as a cantilever beam, supported on one end, and loaded at the impact point, ie. the 'sweet spot' nearer to the unsupported end. this places the spine of the blade in compression, and the edge in tension. somewhere between the spine and the edge is a neutral point that is neither in compression or tension, and and cut-outs put along that line, the 'neutral axis' will not affect the mechanical strength of the beam. it is thus possible to cut a channel in, or even pierce a blade with very little effect on it's strength. rounded edges in lieu of sharp corners, of course, to avoid stress raisers, and kept to a reasonable size... calculating this line would be fun tho, the ancient smith would have to have a lot of experience and experimentation with resulting failures to figure it out.

2nd September 2008, 06:53 AM	#20
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I had thought that the Indian slot was in sections of short lengths (each section isolated)..like Jens said, but when I was in India last year I saw Gopilal Banwharlal..a smith in Udaipur...start to drill a hole from the tang toward the tip...in essence the balls could move from tang to tip unobstructed. I asked him why they do the balls and he said that it was tradition and that they can get more money for it....sounded like a good answer to me. I have yet to do this technique, but it is on the list. Ric

2nd September 2008, 10:45 PM	#23
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Don’t loose any sleep about it Jim. Now, the interesting thing is, that there are ‘tears of the wounded’, and there are ‘tears of the wounded’. Some may know of this, and other may not, but close to the ricasso some of the swords with the tears have slots on each side of the blade. These are only short slots, but they are there, and the balls are there as well. The interesting thing is, does this have anything to do with the ‘tears’ - who knows? But on other blades you can see small groves in the same place, indicating that there could have been balls in them, had they been slots, and not groves. Sometimes the groves are in connection with three dots at each end. Jens

3rd September 2008, 03:19 AM	#24
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	OK Jens, as penance I did some more looking into wootz and found all the information on the 'strength' of the steel, so that was interesting. It is noted however, that the process must be carefully completed to avoid the creation of cementatite and a hopelessly fragile blade. Naturally, this same result might occur in any type of forging, so I cant be sure where my thoughts came from. Did we ever figure why the term, tears of afflicted or wounded? The slots: perhaps to lighten the blade, much as with fullers? and of course for the balls as applicable.

3rd September 2008, 09:06 AM	#25
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Pictures, near the end of the link. http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html