what is your view on reproductions?

[chevalier]

i own 2 reproductions (a filipino sansibar sword and a 1796 LCS)

i was just curious about an antique collector's view on repros.


i would think for some swords such as the various viking swords, repros would be the only way to go if you wanted something you could use, (ive never seen an original viking sword in very good condition)


anyways im just curious as to what the majority of people here think about them.

[Lew]

Traditionally made pieces are fine with me for training and cutting tests I would not want to risk ruining an antique blade or have the blade fly out of the hilt due old dried up resin or glue.


Lew

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by chevalier

i own 2 reproductions (a filipino sansibar sword and a 1796 LCS)

i was just curious about an antique collector's view on repros.


i would think for some swords such as the various viking swords, repros would be the only way to go if you wanted something you could use, (ive never seen an original viking sword in very good condition)


anyways im just curious as to what the majority of people here think about them.

Well, I like indo-perisan stuff especially the armour and helmets, and to be brutally honest 9 out of 10 of the helmets I see on ebay are late 20thC but are stilll described as '18th/19th century' this goes for a fair percentage of the daggers and axes and even a few of the swords etc.
My view is that if you can buy a modern or modern-ish weapon which is produced in the same way as the originals for a quarter of the price a reasonable antique one would cost (if you can even find an original) then great, and I'm happy to have a mixture of old and 'new' in my collection. I just wish people would be a little more honest when selling as I still see far too many inexperienced collectors getting the shaft.
So, authentic reproductions are great, as long as you know what you're getting.

[VANDOO]

THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT VIEWS ON THIS SUBJECT, SOME WOULD CONSIDER ANY NEWLY MADE REPLICA AS JUNK AND WOULD ONLY CONSIDER BUYING THE BEST QUALITY AUTHENTIC EXAMPLES. IF YOU COLLECT IN THIS FASHON YOU MUST HAVE A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY OR BE CONTENT TO PERHAPS GET LUCKY ONE OR TWO TIMES IN YOUR LIFE.
SOME ONLY COLLECT NEWLY MADE EDGED WEAPONS BY THE MASTERS OF OUR AGE ,THESE TWO WAYS OF COLLECTING JUST ABOUT GAURANTEE YOU WILL GET TOP QUALITY AND GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND MOST LIKELY MAKE A PROFIT WHEN YOU SELL.
I COLLECT IN MANY AREAS AND LIKE TO HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF THE MANY FORMS AVAILABLE OFTEN THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE DUE TO A LACK OF EXAMPLES FOR SALE OR THE HIGH COST OF SUCH EXAMPLES. SO I DO BUY REPLICAS IF THEY ARE WELL MADE AND ARE A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF THE WEAPON AND I LIKE THEIR LOOK. THE CHANCES OF GETTING YOUR MONEY BACK OR MAKEING A PROFIT WHEN YOU SELL ARE NOT GOOD ON SUCH ITEMS SO YOU MUST GET YOUR MONEYS WORTH BY ENJOYING THE ITEM AND PERHAPS USING IT FOR TRAINING OR DISPLAY/ DECOR.
I PERSONALLY COLLECT FOR FUN NOT TO PROFIT BUT DO PREFER TO MAKE A PROFIT IF I SELL WHICH HAPPENS VERY SELDOM SO ENJOY COLLECTING AND DO IT YOUR WAY AND DON'T WORRY WHAT THE OTHER GUY THINKS.

ONE OF MY FUN COLLECTIONS IS A GUN COLLECTION WHICH IS OF THE ONLY TYPE GUN HATERS MIGHT APPROVE (WATER GUNS) YOU WOULD BE AMAZED AT THE MANY DESIGNS, TYPES AND SIZES THAT HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE OVER THE YEARS.

[chevalier]

for those of you who like the highest quality reproductions:


http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Sandata.html


the best made filipino weapons i have used. extremely high craftsmanship, made in the philippines, they come razor sharp and very very tough.

[Rick]

I'd posit that those are not reproductions at all; rather they are the result of the continuation of a long standing history of blade making in the Philippines .

[salaghati]

reproduction is okay. Antique trade sweeps out that cultural artifacts of some cultural communities.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'd posit that those are not reproductions at all; rather they are the result of the continuation of a long standing history of blade making in the Philippines .

Couldn't agree more Rick.
Same with the stuff I buy, one chap I deal with's family have made weapons for 300 years!
It's difficult to label such items, more continuation items than just reproductions.

There's also a lot of crap out there of course *cough*china*cough* but who would deny the legitimacy of a fine modern handmade weapon made by a master smith? These things are the 'genuine antiques' of the future. I'm proud to have some beautiful examples of modern work in my collection.

[Henk]

If made in the traditional way, nothing is wrong with a new made piece.
I bought during a holiday in Sweden a viking knife made as a reconstruction of a knife found in a burial place. A very well made knife of high quality and razor sharp.
Just as said, as long as one knows its not antique but made in the traditional way, it's no problem. I cann't buy a real viking knife, so I'm very happy with this one.

[kai]

I'd posit that those are not reproductions at all; rather they are the result of the continuation of a long standing history of blade making in the Philippines .

I beg to differ: I wouldn't even call those "Moroesque" pieces reproductions at all (much less genuine Moro pieces): None of the 7 kris-like objects offered are anything close to genuine pieces (or even recent work coming out of Mindanao). That "kampilan" has the hilt on backwards - that just shows an inacceptable degree of ignorance IMNSHO. Maybe these are functional swords which can be used to do some real slashing and stabbing, fine. However, if they even can't get the shape right, would anybody assume that the balance and other functional details are anything close to original pieces? If I'm interested in a reproduction (rather than some modern wallhanger or fantasy piece) I want it to be a true reproduction done by someone who really knows and understands genuine pieces and their details - not something which looks somehow similar done by some Jack-of-all-trades...

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Okay, I'll accept that Kai .
You are right .

The Moro pieces are indeed more like interpretations by a non-Moro smith .
Let's toss them out .

The Filipino pieces though seem to be more familiar to the makers .
I guess my point was that blademaking has a long tradition in the P.I. and this fact would negate these as true reproductions compared to say Arms and Armor's swords .

[ward]

I do not have much use for repoductions as a collectable. I collect antiques because I like the workmanship and arstisan asthetics of the pieces. Reproductions go down in price generally antiques go up. Reproductions also have a bad habit of trying to pretend to be antiques down the road.

Now this does not mean I do not appreciate modern handmade work but that really does not fall into the reproduction market.

[kahnjar1]

Personally I do not like reproductions but do appreciate the skill which goes into making (some of) them.
If a collector, particularly of guns, needs a certain item to complete a collection (say) of Colt Revolvers, and can not , either due to the high cost, or lack of availability of the very rare item he is missing, chooses to include a replica of that item, then there is definately a place for these. The same reasoning would follow also in the collecting of blades.
Bottom line is that it is probably personal preference rather than anything else which decides this issue.
Stuart

[Jim McDougall]

If I were to describe my perspective on antique weapons, I would say I would be considered an arms and armor historian, and my objective has always been to try to identify examples as well as learn from the weapon as it stands. Therefore I have little interest in reproduction weapons as I cannot learn from them, and I do not any longer collect weapons, just study them. The only thing I can usually learn from these is to review the data often researched by those who make them, and in most cases quite reliable historically in a general sense.

While I admire the beautiful work done by those who create many of the modern reproductions, they really serve no purpose for examination for historic content. On the other hand, they do serve nicely for displays or often in reenactment groups, and typically give good representation in the study of martial dynamics and recreating historic events. Essentially they are typically (hopefully) well researched and reasonably faithfully fashioned.

I think one of the main problems with reproductions in I think limited cases, are those fashioned too well, that is intended to deceive. Some makers are really that good! In the 19th century, the almost legendary case of the German artisan Ernst Schmidt, who created such amazing copies of medieval and renaissance arms and armor for Victorian collectors and the smoking rooms of the gentry, many could not be discerned from originals. These products have now become antiques in thier own right, and on some occasions have still provided unfortunate surprises for even knowledgable collectors.
Most of this type of problem today are the 'mules'. That is a weapon comprised of composite components, often period components, though some reproduced, and the weapon represented as homogenous and original.

I do know of a number of individuals who faithfully restore authentic historic pieces, and who maintain conservative application to preserve the integrity of the weapon. They are straightforward in thier work, and openly describe whatever work is done. It is essential to learn as much as you can and research the weapons you are acquiring, and deal with known dealers and individuals...caveat emptor!

[VANDOO]

FROM LOOKING AT THE ITEMS IN THE SANDATA LINK I WOULD CLASSIFY THEM AS MARTIAL ARTS WEAPONS MUCH LIKE THOSE FOR SALE TO PRACTITIONERS OF THE MANY CHINESE FORMS.
USUALLY THESE ARE MADE OF COMERCIAL STEEL AND FORMED USING STOCK REMOVAL THE GRIPS MAY BE SIMPLE OR BEAUTIFUL BUT SHOULD ALWAYS BE STURDY AND GOOD FOR USE IN PRACTICE. THE BALANCE SHOULD BE GOOD AND THEY MAY BE MODIFIED FROM THE ORIGINAL FORM OF THE WEAPON BUT SHOULD BE OF THE PROPER SHAPE AND SIZE AND CAN BE SHARP OR DULL EDGED. THE PRICES SHOULD BE LESS ON THESE AS THEY DO NOT MEET MY STANDARD OF A TRUE REPLICA WHICH SHOULD HAVE AS GOOD TRADITIONAL DETAIL AS AN ORIGINAL. THIS LACK OF PROPER DETAIL AND WORKMANSHIP IS ESPECIALLY EVIDENT ON THE CARVING ON THE KRIS.
SOME OF THE ITEMS COME CLOSER TO THE ORIGINAL FORMS THAN OTHERS AND THEY ALL MAY BE CLOSE ENOUGH TO GET THE FEEL OF THE TYPE OF WEAPON, THEY MAY ALSO MAKE GOOD BUSH KNIVES FOR WORK AS WELL AS TRAINING.
I CONSIDER THE ITEMS I OWN LIKE THESE TO BE RECENT INTERPRETATIONS OF OLDER FORMS AND SOME CROSSING OVER INTO FANTASY KNIVES. THE PRICES WERE REASONABLE BUT IT IS STILL POSSIBLE TO GET A REAL MORO KRIS FOR A REASONABLE PRICE IF YOU ARE NOT ONLY INTERESTED IN DATU GRADE. SO FOR COLLECTING A MORO KRIS OR KAMPILIAN AN ORIGINAL IS BEST BUT FOR TRAINING PERHAPS ONE OF THE MARTIAL ARTS VARIETY IS BEST.

[Dom]

what it's new today, will be old tomorrow
ALL ours antics, have been new one day .....

also, could be nice to define the term of "antic"
how many years old .. minimum

the first one said more than 60 is a DEAD MAN

à +

Dom

[Rick]

Now just a second Here !!
I'm 61 and still kicking .

For me it has always been 100 years for an item to be judged 'Antique' .

[Bill M]

Hey Rick,

We 60+ guys traditionally call each other "young man!" I'll be 65 on Halloween, but I feel like a 35 year old.

As far as reproductions, I bought a pile of Indian weapons supposedly made by descendants of the guys who have been making them a thousand years or so.

Anyone remember "Shah Jahans?" I have their whole inventory. Now, you must realize that these were all made in the previous century.

[ariel]

I fully agree with Jim.
For me, the joy of owning an old piece is owning its history: they, after all, were used for the intended "Cold Steel" purposes.
Reproductions are just pieces of metal shaped in the form of an old sword, but they are devoid of context.
They are very useful for training and decoration of dens in the houses sporting mass-produced copies of famous paintings. Ughh.....

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Now just a second Here !!
I'm 61 and still kicking .

For me it has always been 100 years for an item to be judged 'Antique' .

Right on Rick!!!!
I worked for the airlines for nearly 40 years, retired last year, and remember one day about 7 years ago, we were sending out a Boeing 727 on its last flight, on its way to the desert. The young guy working with me commented it was sad to see this faithful plane going away to the desert.......I noted to him, yeah, worse for me though, I remember when they were new!!

Been 'dodgin' bullets for lots a years now', looks like I'm gonna make 63 ..next month!!! Thats why I like the patinated, worn old warriors.....they're just like me

[Lew]

Ariel


Many of the forum members here study Philippine martial arts so if you are doing a martial arts demo (cutting test) would you use a prized antique or would you be more inclined towards using a properly forged and sharpened new sword? These types of weapons such as the traditional Philippine swords/bolos are perfect for this purpose. Everything has it's place so I see nothing wrong with adding a few newer pieces to ones collection of antiques to mess around with as long as they are made in the same way as the old ones.

Lew

[ariel]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ariel


Many of the forum members here study Philippine martial arts so if you are doing a martial arts demo (cutting test) would you use a prized antique or would you be more inclined towards using a properly forged and sharpened new sword? These types of weapons such as the traditional Philippine swords/bolos are perfect for this purpose. Everything has it's place so I see nothing wrong with adding a few newer pieces to ones collection of antiques to mess around with as long as they are made in the same way as the old ones.

Lew

That's exactly what I meant by "training". Sorry if I did not express myself clearly.

[M ELEY]

Absolutely agree- antique pieces for the history. To think who might have handled it and for what use, how it was handed down and where it ended up. Reproductions and newly-made traditional pieces are fine and all, but not my cup of tea. Also, some of these modern-made pieces will invariably end up being buried in the yard, sprayed with acid and dinged up to become "200 year old" antiques in about 30 years.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I see nothing wrong with adding a few newer pieces to ones collection of antiques to mess around with as long as they are made in the same way as the old ones.Lew

or even, to complete from a part of a weapon or armor e.i.
- the sterling silver handle is 40 years old from KSA
- the blade is over than 100 years - Pouluar Afgan XIXth century, from a french scraping store
- the scabbard is less than 3 years from Damascus Syria done by a real swordsmith
so, it's not an antiquity, but .... not a new copy
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=tale

anyway, it's one of my favorite item, with my kulah-khud

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

What page are we on? I'm lost