17th Century Pata for discussion

CourseEight · 10th July 2008, 05:17 PM

Hi all --

I wanted to post my most prized piece in honor of my hundredth post. From what I've read, I believe that it is a late 17th century pata from Mysore or Tanjore. I was hoping that forum members could, in addition to giving their general impressions, help me out a bit with the iconography on the handle. I own a copy of Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual, and so I was able to identify some of it, but I am most curious about nature of the dieties(?) along each side. There are 5 in a row, and then a sixth seperated from them, on both sides. It appears they are 6 different people, with the same people being represented on both sides but in different postures. I was wondering if anyone had any guesses as to whether these were the same diety in different incarnations, or if this represented a story being told, or what.

As to what I've identified, I was also hope for confirmation that my interpretation is correct:

On one side of the portion of the handle which holds the blade is a gandabherunda, a double headed bird, this with makara heads like on pg. 176 of Elgood.

On the other side, in addition to a floral motif is a kirtimukha, as described on pgs. 133-134 (puffy cheeks, missing lower jaw, etc.)

On the front triangular portion of the gauntlet is Gajalakshmi as descibed on pg. 245 (seated, flanked by elephants with raised trunks, etc.)

As always all responses are welcome and appreciated,

--Radleigh

Atlantia · 10th July 2008, 09:30 PM

WOW!

They just don't come much better than that.
10/10

I am green with envy!

Congratulations.

fernando · 11th July 2008, 01:11 AM

Magnificent, Radleigh.
I too feel envious. Congratulations.
If you have that 17th century confirmed, you got yourself a very rare and fine item. Perhaps an European blade ... what would you say ?
Fernando

Battara · 11th July 2008, 05:29 AM

The style looks south Indian - very nice.

bhushan_lawate · 11th July 2008, 06:31 AM

Great piece....congratulataions....!!!!

The small figures that you see on the side of the arm guard are the 10 incarnations of the Hindu God Vishnu.

It is believed that Vishu incarnated in the following forms:
1. Fish
2. Tortoise.
3. Boar
4. Narshima (The Lion headed god)
5. Vaman (small man)
6. Parshuram (The Sage)
7. Ram (The ultimate example of discipline and revered human turned god; the hero of Ramayana)
8. Krishna (The lord from Mahabharata time; gave the Bhagwad Gita to the world)
9. Buddha (The enlightened one)
10. Kalki (yet to be incarnated; mythology says that he will come on a white horse drawing a flamming sword during the end of Kaliyuga.

Mythology apart these 10 incarnations are also a representation of the evolution of living beings (from aquatic life to amphibians to reptiles to humans to superhumans

The Ganda Bherunda represents the royal emblem of the Hoyasala kings (8th to 12th Century A.D) in the Deccan regions (Maharashtra, Karnataka and parts of Andhra Pradesh) of India.

The Gajalakshmi is a symbol of supreme wealth and is a consort of lord Vishnu.

The motifs include a lot of lotus like designs which is the favourite flower of Lakshmi.

You will also see the 'Yali' a mythological lion like animal on the sides of the guard.

Regards,
Bhushan

bhushan_lawate · 11th July 2008, 07:48 AM

Hi,

Forgot to add.

if you could give a close up of the dome of the guard i'll be able to help you with the remaining two figures as well.

The KirtiMukha can be seen even used till date adorning the elite doorways of temples and arches behind the idols of gods and goddesses...!!!!!!!!

Also let me know if you need details of the incarnations and the stories behind them

I'll suggest a Maratha origin for this piece. (Tanjore to be specific)

regards,
Bhushan

VANDOO · 11th July 2008, 08:53 AM

CONGRADULATIONS AN A IMPRESSIVE 100TH POST AND SWORD. WHAT A BEAUTY I WANT ONE!!

katana · 11th July 2008, 12:57 PM

FABULOUS ! fantastic example, congrats CourseEight ... add another to the list of 'Envious'

Regards David

CourseEight · 11th July 2008, 06:22 PM

Thanks to everyone for your kind words. Thanks especially bhushan_lawate! You have definitely answered many of my questions, and of course I am happy to hear anything more about the iconography that you care to tell me!

I have zoomed in on the two unidentified figures remaining, and though one is a bit blurry, I hope it is sufficient for you to help with them as well!

Fernando, I do think the blade is probably European, but there are no makings on it. It's about 94 cm in length, thin and flexible, with a shallow fuller on either side that appears to extend under the guard attachment. There is evidence it may be pattern welded, but I'm not sure.

Thanks again, everyone,

--Radleigh

bhushan_lawate · 11th July 2008, 07:09 PM

Hello,

The first pic is of 'Hanuman' the monkey headed lord. Assisted Rama in his conquest of Lanka...!!!!

The second ones a lil too blurred however I guess it belongs to Hanuman too.

A little clearer picture should help.

I must confess I'm very jealous...!!!!

Regards,
Bhushan

Runjeet Singh · 11th July 2008, 07:23 PM

Radleigh,
Congratulations on the wonderful sword!!

Bhushan,
Just my opinion, but the 1st close up bears a close resemblance to 'Vahara' the Boar incarnation of Vishnu. Note the elongated face/snout. As Bhushan has said thouth, the 2nd close up could of course be Hunumaan.

Regards,
Runjeet

bhushan_lawate · 11th July 2008, 07:28 PM

Hi,

Could be but i see a 'tail like' thing which pushes me to believe it is Hanuman.

Maybe a couple of pics could help us get more clarity.

Regards,
Bhushan

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 10:15 PM

This really is a fantastic pata Radleigh!!! and incredible condition. I think the Tanjore attribution is quite likely correct as the elaborate chiselled decoration is very much like the katar hilts. Trying to establish date on these is typically extremely difficult as the iconography, style and form remained relatively consistant for long periods and with the theme of Divine Figures in Hindu theology represented in magnificent decoration.

Bhushan, thank you so much for detailing the images represented in this decoration. The understanding of the complexities of the Hindu religion is often challenging for many of us who are not of that Faith, but I have always considered all aspects of the history of India fascinating. I think Robert Elgood's book "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is great in approaching the study of these weapons from that perspective, and never ceases being a complete adventure in learning every time I focus on it. My problem has always been that of 'focus', and too often get distracted by other projects

Your concise and detailed description on this beautiful pata is very much appreciated.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 12th July 2008, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Bhushan, thank you so much for detailing the images represented in this decoration ... Your concise and detailed description on this beautiful pata is very much appreciated ...

Sure thing Jim,
Impecable description, Bhushan.
Fernando

olikara · 12th July 2008, 11:16 AM

The Pata does display typical Tanjore characteristics and so there is no doubt that the inspiration for the piece is from Tanjore.

But then, what do we mean when we call a piece 'Tanjore'? If we mean that it was always manufactured in the geographical region of Tanjore in South India we could be wrong. The Tanjore form of chiselled and pierced armour work was also cultivated in other centers near and around Tanjore too like Madurai (also Maratha Nayak rulers), Ginjee, Vellore, Mysore, etc.

I would put the place of origin for this particular piece as Mysore because of the prominence given to the Ganda Bherunda on the Langet. The Ganda Bherunda is a Kannada(language spoken in Mysore) word and was the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore.

Nidhi

P.S. Radleigh, a piece par excellence! Congratulations.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th July 2008, 02:29 PM

Radligh, a magnificent pata.

Bhushan and Nidhi, you have both given very interesting comments on the pata. Like Nidhi writes, the safest is to say Tanjore style, as this style was made in several places. So, although it could be from Tanjore or another place, I find Nidhi’s argument about the Ganda Bherunda being the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore for a strong one.

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2008, 02:45 PM

Thank you Nidhi for your well stated and supported observations, and I agree with you and Jens wholeheartedly. It is a very good point that despite being in the style of Tanjore, the production of weapons in that style are certainly not confined to that location. It is great to have this kind of discussion on an important weapon of India, and to have this kind of definitive analysis on its decorative motif.
I sincerely hope for more of this type of discussion on the weapons posted on the forum as everyone benefits from the compiled and compatitively analyzed data, and we all learn.
Thank you so much gentlemen!
All the best,
Jim

10th July 2008, 05:17 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	17th Century Pata for discussion Hi all -- I wanted to post my most prized piece in honor of my hundredth post. From what I've read, I believe that it is a late 17th century pata from Mysore or Tanjore. I was hoping that forum members could, in addition to giving their general impressions, help me out a bit with the iconography on the handle. I own a copy of Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual, and so I was able to identify some of it, but I am most curious about nature of the dieties(?) along each side. There are 5 in a row, and then a sixth seperated from them, on both sides. It appears they are 6 different people, with the same people being represented on both sides but in different postures. I was wondering if anyone had any guesses as to whether these were the same diety in different incarnations, or if this represented a story being told, or what. As to what I've identified, I was also hope for confirmation that my interpretation is correct: On one side of the portion of the handle which holds the blade is a gandabherunda, a double headed bird, this with makara heads like on pg. 176 of Elgood. On the other side, in addition to a floral motif is a kirtimukha, as described on pgs. 133-134 (puffy cheeks, missing lower jaw, etc.) On the front triangular portion of the gauntlet is Gajalakshmi as descibed on pg. 245 (seated, flanked by elephants with raised trunks, etc.) As always all responses are welcome and appreciated, --Radleigh Attached Images

11th July 2008, 06:22 PM	#9
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks to everyone for your kind words. Thanks especially bhushan_lawate! You have definitely answered many of my questions, and of course I am happy to hear anything more about the iconography that you care to tell me! I have zoomed in on the two unidentified figures remaining, and though one is a bit blurry, I hope it is sufficient for you to help with them as well! Fernando, I do think the blade is probably European, but there are no makings on it. It's about 94 cm in length, thin and flexible, with a shallow fuller on either side that appears to extend under the guard attachment. There is evidence it may be pattern welded, but I'm not sure. Thanks again, everyone, --Radleigh Attached Images

11th July 2008, 07:23 PM	#11
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Radleigh, Congratulations on the wonderful sword!! Bhushan, Just my opinion, but the 1st close up bears a close resemblance to 'Vahara' the Boar incarnation of Vishnu. Note the elongated face/snout. As Bhushan has said thouth, the 2nd close up could of course be Hunumaan. Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

12th July 2008, 11:16 AM	#15
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Mysore The Pata does display typical Tanjore characteristics and so there is no doubt that the inspiration for the piece is from Tanjore. But then, what do we mean when we call a piece 'Tanjore'? If we mean that it was always manufactured in the geographical region of Tanjore in South India we could be wrong. The Tanjore form of chiselled and pierced armour work was also cultivated in other centers near and around Tanjore too like Madurai (also Maratha Nayak rulers), Ginjee, Vellore, Mysore, etc. I would put the place of origin for this particular piece as Mysore because of the prominence given to the Ganda Bherunda on the Langet. The Ganda Bherunda is a Kannada(language spoken in Mysore) word and was the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore. Nidhi P.S. Radleigh, a piece par excellence! Congratulations. Last edited by olikara; 12th July 2008 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Added small detail

10th July 2008, 09:30 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	WOW! They just don't come much better than that. 10/10 I am green with envy! Congratulations.

11th July 2008, 01:11 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Magnificent, Radleigh. I too feel envious. Congratulations. If you have that 17th century confirmed, you got yourself a very rare and fine item. Perhaps an European blade ... what would you say ? Fernando

11th July 2008, 05:29 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The style looks south Indian - very nice.

11th July 2008, 06:31 AM	#5
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Great piece....congratulataions....!!!! The small figures that you see on the side of the arm guard are the 10 incarnations of the Hindu God Vishnu. It is believed that Vishu incarnated in the following forms: 1. Fish 2. Tortoise. 3. Boar 4. Narshima (The Lion headed god) 5. Vaman (small man) 6. Parshuram (The Sage) 7. Ram (The ultimate example of discipline and revered human turned god; the hero of Ramayana) 8. Krishna (The lord from Mahabharata time; gave the Bhagwad Gita to the world) 9. Buddha (The enlightened one) 10. Kalki (yet to be incarnated; mythology says that he will come on a white horse drawing a flamming sword during the end of Kaliyuga. Mythology apart these 10 incarnations are also a representation of the evolution of living beings (from aquatic life to amphibians to reptiles to humans to superhumans The Ganda Bherunda represents the royal emblem of the Hoyasala kings (8th to 12th Century A.D) in the Deccan regions (Maharashtra, Karnataka and parts of Andhra Pradesh) of India. The Gajalakshmi is a symbol of supreme wealth and is a consort of lord Vishnu. The motifs include a lot of lotus like designs which is the favourite flower of Lakshmi. You will also see the 'Yali' a mythological lion like animal on the sides of the guard. Regards, Bhushan

11th July 2008, 07:48 AM	#6
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, Forgot to add. if you could give a close up of the dome of the guard i'll be able to help you with the remaining two figures as well. The KirtiMukha can be seen even used till date adorning the elite doorways of temples and arches behind the idols of gods and goddesses...!!!!!!!! Also let me know if you need details of the incarnations and the stories behind them I'll suggest a Maratha origin for this piece. (Tanjore to be specific) regards, Bhushan

11th July 2008, 08:53 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRADULATIONS AN A IMPRESSIVE 100TH POST AND SWORD. WHAT A BEAUTY I WANT ONE!!

11th July 2008, 12:57 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	FABULOUS ! fantastic example, congrats CourseEight ... add another to the list of 'Envious' Regards David

11th July 2008, 07:09 PM	#10
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hello, The first pic is of 'Hanuman' the monkey headed lord. Assisted Rama in his conquest of Lanka...!!!! The second ones a lil too blurred however I guess it belongs to Hanuman too. A little clearer picture should help. I must confess I'm very jealous...!!!! Regards, Bhushan

11th July 2008, 07:28 PM	#12
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, Could be but i see a 'tail like' thing which pushes me to believe it is Hanuman. Maybe a couple of pics could help us get more clarity. Regards, Bhushan

11th July 2008, 10:15 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	This really is a fantastic pata Radleigh!!! and incredible condition. I think the Tanjore attribution is quite likely correct as the elaborate chiselled decoration is very much like the katar hilts. Trying to establish date on these is typically extremely difficult as the iconography, style and form remained relatively consistant for long periods and with the theme of Divine Figures in Hindu theology represented in magnificent decoration. Bhushan, thank you so much for detailing the images represented in this decoration. The understanding of the complexities of the Hindu religion is often challenging for many of us who are not of that Faith, but I have always considered all aspects of the history of India fascinating. I think Robert Elgood's book "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is great in approaching the study of these weapons from that perspective, and never ceases being a complete adventure in learning every time I focus on it. My problem has always been that of 'focus', and too often get distracted by other projects Your concise and detailed description on this beautiful pata is very much appreciated. All best regards, Jim

12th July 2008, 02:29 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Radligh, a magnificent pata. Bhushan and Nidhi, you have both given very interesting comments on the pata. Like Nidhi writes, the safest is to say Tanjore style, as this style was made in several places. So, although it could be from Tanjore or another place, I find Nidhi’s argument about the Ganda Bherunda being the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore for a strong one.

12th July 2008, 02:45 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Thank you Nidhi for your well stated and supported observations, and I agree with you and Jens wholeheartedly. It is a very good point that despite being in the style of Tanjore, the production of weapons in that style are certainly not confined to that location. It is great to have this kind of discussion on an important weapon of India, and to have this kind of definitive analysis on its decorative motif. I sincerely hope for more of this type of discussion on the weapons posted on the forum as everyone benefits from the compiled and compatitively analyzed data, and we all learn. Thank you so much gentlemen! All the best, Jim