"WOW" TARZANS KNIFE!!!

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2005, 03:01 PM

I took it from him before he hurt himself

Seriously I got this today at a market not so long ago I would have had no idea as to its origin but because of this great site I shall have a stab at it

Pillippines? oa length 35cm blade22cm.All the stitching is brass wire.Thanks Tim.

Bill · 28th March 2005, 03:46 PM

nothing typical of Philippine type work

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2005, 04:00 PM

Thanks Bill,I have a feeling this is going to be a hard one.It is really frustrating when an origin can not be found.Tim

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2005, 04:38 PM

I just thought I might add that looking at this on your PC you will not be able to see that the washers in the handle, have been hand made and are not stamped out, so it only looks like western constuction.I think the blade is ground from maybe a larger knife.The only thing is the tang is thiner than the blade.I think I am sure the blade was not forged to shape.The wire stitching on the scabbard is in chain stitch.Thank you for any help.Tim

tom hyle · 29th March 2005, 01:14 AM

Is there a solid metal pommel, or is it metal sheets laid over the wood and rivetted down?

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2005, 07:02 AM

Hello Tom, the pommel has thin brass sheets nailed into each piece of wood on the handle.Thanks for looking.Tim

ariel · 29th March 2005, 02:07 PM

Why do I think North/North-East Africa?

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2005, 04:14 PM

The rivets holding the brass sheets go through the handle and not nailed as I said previously.A lot of North African Knives have been post over recent months,I just did not get that feeling.It has slight look of a modified butchers knife.I thought the wire work was possible PI like these pics.

tom hyle · 29th March 2005, 04:25 PM

I'm thinking Europe or Eurocolonial. Australia or maritime (ship board production) have my current vote. Is the tang abrubtly thinner than the blade, or is it tapered? This may be an old pig sticker someone replaced the scales on and made a fanced up sheath for. A pig sticker is a 2-edged dagger used to slaughter pigs (What, you thought it was always done by the "Carrie" method?). It looks like a wwII era carry piece.

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2005, 04:32 PM

Thats something I had not thought of,a bit like trench weapons made by the soldiers.Thats a good possiblity.

Conogre · 29th March 2005, 04:56 PM

That's a very interesting piece, the type that's fun to explore possibilities on and that occasionally turns out to be FAR more valuable than previously supposed.
You, of course, have the advantage in being able to see and handle it directly, but don't give up as I've had several that have taken years to make a determination on and some that are still unsolved.
I don't get the impression of a trench art piece here at all, and likewise it doesn't appear to be of tribal origin, with my suspicion being that you may have an African colonial knife from the Boer Wars or similar.
The hilting is definitely European in style, while the sheath appears to have been native stitched as is sometimes seen on overseer's knives, with the belt loop also of European style.
The pommel is somewhat curious as that has a N. African flavor to it with the brass plates riveted over the wood, although this is by no means restricted to just that region.
I think you've got an altogether original and unique piece there that was very carefully made by someone with a lot of time on their hands and careful attention to detail and possibly native assistance.
Mike

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2005, 05:07 PM

Thank you, I feel because the scabbard was at one time dyed purple which you can just see on your PC, is not a very macho colour for a ruffty-tuffty european type, makes the puzzle a lot harder.The blade is not abruptly thicker than the tang but at one time before grinding it must have been.Thanks for opinions.Tim

Conogre · 30th March 2005, 01:07 AM

Tim, keep in mind that purple, due to the difficulty in getting natural dyes that color was for centuries ONLY allowed to be worn by royalty, as far back as ancient Rome and possibly earlier.
Purple, in older African pieces using traditional dyes, was made by crushing a certain kind of scale insect, while ochres and white were earth pigments and black often charcoal or pitch.
I strongly suspect that you have the African equivelent of a trapper's or mountain man's knife from the American westward expansion era where they were often in contact with native locals moreso than other colonists and settlers, and often carrying knives that were made from trade knives and then embellished by the tribal locals as a gesture of respect.
Mike

Tim Simmons · 30th March 2005, 07:06 AM

Well there we are,TARZAN was a little scary,being bigger than me but I just walked straight up to him and said"Tarzan give me that Knife now! theres a good chap" he seemed to understand.Thats the way to deal with his type, firm but fair.Thanks Tim

Conogre · 31st March 2005, 06:01 AM

You're making light of Tarzan why again, Tim?

Tim Simmons · 13th November 2005, 08:17 PM

I have dug this one up again as I now suspect this is another German East African hybrid made by African soldiers in the Great War. The spear point blade with a central midrib is not a European thing but the handle is so obviously made to imitate a European military knife even though the blade is originally a European knife . The thick buffalo? leather does not seem tanned in a African tribal way either but the stitched pattern on the scabbard strikes me as having a native touch. It is the midrib that does it for me. Tim

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2008, 06:04 PM

Ended I have saved pics also.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=013

The blade has the same spear point profile with triangle mid point at the forte.
WW1? any mititary collectors have more info?

colin henshaw · 8th June 2008, 06:52 PM

The chain stitching on the hide sheath is very like that to be found on some East African knife sheaths. Refer the knife on page 41 of Fischer & Zingibl's "African Weapons". It is given a Wahehe tribe attribution (current Tanzania, once German East Africa).

Regards

Lew · 8th June 2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

You're making light of Tarzan why again, Tim?

Well, look what the leopard dragged in!

Where have you been hiding out?

Lew

David · 8th June 2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Well, look what the leopard dragged in!

Where have you been hiding out?

Lew

I, as well Lew, was also pleased to see a picture of "Tarzan" Mike today, but alas, Mike's post was from March of 2005.

HEY MIKE! ARE YOU OUT THERE!

ausjulius · 9th June 2008, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I took it from him before he hurt himself

Seriously I got this today at a market not so long ago I would have had no idea as to its origin but because of this great site I shall have a stab at it

Pillippines? oa length 35cm blade22cm.All the stitching is brass wire.Thanks Tim.

most likely a french product from the 19th centuary.........

Tim Simmons · 9th June 2008, 06:34 PM

Now that I have more of this sort of thing. I am sure that it is not made from a European knife but African forged. I do not see an immediate French inspiration, German yes.

Colin, I do not have this book could you post page 41?

Freddy · 9th June 2008, 07:07 PM

Here it is, Tim

Tim Simmons · 9th June 2008, 07:11 PM

Thanks Freddy. That brass stitching does look very similar indeed.

colin henshaw · 9th June 2008, 07:20 PM

Tim,

Regret I don't have a decent digital camera at the moment, but another forum member is on the ball.

A very interesting group of colonial cross-cultural material...

Regards.

Tim Simmons · 9th June 2008, 07:46 PM

Very kind of you to say so Colin. I forgot this one which I now believe is from the same stable or there abouts.

Wahehe/Hehe all very interesting-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hehe

28th March 2005, 03:01 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	"WOW" TARZANS KNIFE!!! I took it from him before he hurt himself Seriously I got this today at a market not so long ago I would have had no idea as to its origin but because of this great site I shall have a stab at it Pillippines? oa length 35cm blade22cm.All the stitching is brass wire.Thanks Tim. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 28th March 2005 at 03:31 PM.

29th March 2005, 07:02 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello Tom, the pommel has thin brass sheets nailed into each piece of wood on the handle.Thanks for looking.Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th March 2005 at 07:52 AM.

29th March 2005, 04:14 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The rivets holding the brass sheets go through the handle and not nailed as I said previously.A lot of North African Knives have been post over recent months,I just did not get that feeling.It has slight look of a modified butchers knife.I thought the wire work was possible PI like these pics. Attached Images

29th March 2005, 05:07 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thank you, I feel because the scabbard was at one time dyed purple which you can just see on your PC, is not a very macho colour for a ruffty-tuffty european type, makes the puzzle a lot harder.The blade is not abruptly thicker than the tang but at one time before grinding it must have been.Thanks for opinions.Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th March 2005 at 05:55 PM.

30th March 2005, 07:06 AM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Well there we are,TARZAN was a little scary,being bigger than me but I just walked straight up to him and said"Tarzan give me that Knife now! theres a good chap" he seemed to understand.Thats the way to deal with his type, firm but fair.Thanks Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th March 2005 at 04:08 PM.

28th March 2005, 03:46 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	nothing typical of Philippine type work

28th March 2005, 04:00 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thanks Bill,I have a feeling this is going to be a hard one.It is really frustrating when an origin can not be found.Tim

28th March 2005, 04:38 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I just thought I might add that looking at this on your PC you will not be able to see that the washers in the handle, have been hand made and are not stamped out, so it only looks like western constuction.I think the blade is ground from maybe a larger knife.The only thing is the tang is thiner than the blade.I think I am sure the blade was not forged to shape.The wire stitching on the scabbard is in chain stitch.Thank you for any help.Tim

29th March 2005, 01:14 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is there a solid metal pommel, or is it metal sheets laid over the wood and rivetted down?

29th March 2005, 02:07 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Why do I think North/North-East Africa?

29th March 2005, 04:25 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm thinking Europe or Eurocolonial. Australia or maritime (ship board production) have my current vote. Is the tang abrubtly thinner than the blade, or is it tapered? This may be an old pig sticker someone replaced the scales on and made a fanced up sheath for. A pig sticker is a 2-edged dagger used to slaughter pigs (What, you thought it was always done by the "Carrie" method?). It looks like a wwII era carry piece.

29th March 2005, 04:32 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thats something I had not thought of,a bit like trench weapons made by the soldiers.Thats a good possiblity.

29th March 2005, 04:56 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That's a very interesting piece, the type that's fun to explore possibilities on and that occasionally turns out to be FAR more valuable than previously supposed. You, of course, have the advantage in being able to see and handle it directly, but don't give up as I've had several that have taken years to make a determination on and some that are still unsolved. I don't get the impression of a trench art piece here at all, and likewise it doesn't appear to be of tribal origin, with my suspicion being that you may have an African colonial knife from the Boer Wars or similar. The hilting is definitely European in style, while the sheath appears to have been native stitched as is sometimes seen on overseer's knives, with the belt loop also of European style. The pommel is somewhat curious as that has a N. African flavor to it with the brass plates riveted over the wood, although this is by no means restricted to just that region. I think you've got an altogether original and unique piece there that was very carefully made by someone with a lot of time on their hands and careful attention to detail and possibly native assistance. Mike

30th March 2005, 01:07 AM	#13
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Tim, keep in mind that purple, due to the difficulty in getting natural dyes that color was for centuries ONLY allowed to be worn by royalty, as far back as ancient Rome and possibly earlier. Purple, in older African pieces using traditional dyes, was made by crushing a certain kind of scale insect, while ochres and white were earth pigments and black often charcoal or pitch. I strongly suspect that you have the African equivelent of a trapper's or mountain man's knife from the American westward expansion era where they were often in contact with native locals moreso than other colonists and settlers, and often carrying knives that were made from trade knives and then embellished by the tribal locals as a gesture of respect. Mike

31st March 2005, 06:01 AM	#15
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	You're making light of Tarzan why again, Tim? Attached Images

13th November 2005, 08:17 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I have dug this one up again as I now suspect this is another German East African hybrid made by African soldiers in the Great War. The spear point blade with a central midrib is not a European thing but the handle is so obviously made to imitate a European military knife even though the blade is originally a European knife . The thick buffalo? leather does not seem tanned in a African tribal way either but the stitched pattern on the scabbard strikes me as having a native touch. It is the midrib that does it for me. Tim

8th June 2008, 06:04 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Look see. Ended I have saved pics also. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=013 The blade has the same spear point profile with triangle mid point at the forte. WW1? any mititary collectors have more info? Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 8th June 2008 at 06:37 PM.

8th June 2008, 06:52 PM	#18
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	The chain stitching on the hide sheath is very like that to be found on some East African knife sheaths. Refer the knife on page 41 of Fischer & Zingibl's "African Weapons". It is given a Wahehe tribe attribution (current Tanzania, once German East Africa). Regards

9th June 2008, 06:34 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Now that I have more of this sort of thing. I am sure that it is not made from a European knife but African forged. I do not see an immediate French inspiration, German yes. Colin, I do not have this book could you post page 41? Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th June 2008 at 06:56 PM.

9th June 2008, 07:07 PM	#23
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Pic Here it is, Tim

9th June 2008, 07:11 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thanks Freddy. That brass stitching does look very similar indeed.

9th June 2008, 07:20 PM	#25
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Tim, Regret I don't have a decent digital camera at the moment, but another forum member is on the ball. A very interesting group of colonial cross-cultural material... Regards.

9th June 2008, 07:46 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Very kind of you to say so Colin. I forgot this one which I now believe is from the same stable or there abouts. Wahehe/Hehe all very interesting- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hehe Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th June 2008 at 08:15 PM. Reason: spelling