Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
I envy your experiences with the Empu...learning traditional craft is a hobby of mine...I was in India in Feb/March looking at museums and talking to smiths (Bhanwarlal) in Rajisthan (North India).
Tradition now is an electric stone grinder and a power hammer. They can still do the old work (well some can), but few are interested in paying. Antiques are cheaper than modern work so many antiques are re-worked with modern tastes and sold.
I saw piles of handles waiting new koftgari...I asked if they make handles and they said "why?"..pointing to the box of old ones.

It seems that more and more the "first world" is preserving techniques lost or unused in the country of origin...not politically correct, but there it is.

As to a living...in smithing...do architectural work not knives.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I could see architectural work paying. Once you use the word "architecture" , or any of its derivatives, cost goes up exponentially.

Ric, maybe you envy some of my experience, but I doubt that you would have enjoyed it very much.

Try a full deep squat, with your bum just scraping the ground, and nothing to sit on except your heels.

Now imagine a bench about 15 inches high.

You maintain this squat for hours on end while working with files, scrapers, cold chisels, and all the other hand tools used to sculpt a keris blade.

A normal working day under these conditions was 7.30AM to 3.30PM with a half hour break for lunch.

These were the working conditions for the keris that I made under Empu Suparman's instruction. It took 16 days working like this to make it.

At the time I learnt from Empu Suparman, he was the only maker of whom we knew who was still using traditional methods. Everybody else was using electric grinders, angle grinders, bench grinders, die grinders---etc, and things like Dremels for the detail work. Some makers were---and still do---put on a traditional work show for visitors, but when the visitors go home, they go back to their real workshop and work standing at a normal bench using electric tools, similar to what any metal worker uses these days.

Ain't no money in tradition , mate, and people have to make a living. Empu Suparman never, ever worked on a commercial basis, and did not sell his work, but gave it away. Of course, there was always a reciprocatory gift.

Empu Suparman was my most important teacher, and eventually I became a part of his family, but other empus and pandai keris have also given me a lot of knowledge.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, I could see architectural work paying. Once you use the word "architecture" , or any of its derivatives, cost goes up exponentially.

Ric, maybe you envy some of my experience, but I doubt that you would have enjoyed it very much.

Ain't no money in tradition , mate, and people have to make a living. Empu Suparman never, ever worked on a commercial basis, and did not sell his work, but gave it away. Of course, there was always a reciprocatory gift.

Empu Suparman was my most important teacher, and eventually I became a part of his family, but other empus and pandai keris have also given me a lot of knowledge.

Alan,
There is some solice in pain (says the fat American ). ..it can be noble.

I bleed regular when making blades...just did last night after the thing was finished..stupid move on my part.

Alan I have been wondering this for years...do you know if there would be intrest in having some empu, or simply bladesmiths, coming to the US for a period of time to demonstrate? I could host them here in Wisconsin (four hours North of Chicago) and take them to a few gatherings. There have been Japanese smiths, Mexican copper workers, and various European smiths who have done this. I will be hosting some Indian smiths next year.
BUT
All my attempts to get Indonesian smiths here have come to nothing.

Ric

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all! This sounds familiar.... I did seven years working for myself making blades and as a general smith-tradition counts for little, everyone wants stuff as cheap as possible. The only jobs I really made good cash return on were horimono carvings and retempering jobs on old Japanese blades. Wrought ironwork ain't my thing, I don't think I could cope making another spiral staircase! I gave up when the market was flooded with imported gates which retailers could buy for £25, ready made, galvanised and painted.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ric, I'll send you a PM on this question.

Lemmy, yep, cheap rules the day.

Check the price of damascus since India got involved.

Check the price of flannelette shirts since they're made in China.

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

It seems that more and more the "first world" is preserving techniques lost or unused in the country of origin...not politically correct, but there it is.
Ric

Sad but very true, Ric

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by lemmythesmith

Hello to everyone!! Here's a little patrem that I've forged from Campo Del Cielo meteorite and old wrought iron with a steel core. The wrongko is thuya burl and the gandar is ebony. Ivory ukiran in the Durga/Dewa Sri/Wadon form. Mendak in sterling silver.
I used 325g of iron salvaged from Windsor Castle after the fire, 190g of Campo meteorite and 90g of Kango (jackhammer chisel) for the steel core. Pamor of 170 or so layers in a "ladder" pattern which has turned out quite reflective, got a little carried away with a complex ricikan which looking back (hindsight is always 20/20!) was a little ambitious, still, I had a lot of fun building it and learned a lot too!! I think I'll steer clear of complex dapor for a while and concentrate on getting the overall shape right!! There wasn't an overall plan for this keris what you see sort of just "happened" with the constituent parts coming together because I liked the style or shape of them, hence the "hybrid" form!!

Dear Lemmy,

Really, it is worth to be included in the next Keris Ensiklopedi... I like your sogokan. Not deep, like the old jalak budo sogokan. Also very good-looking kruwingan. Where is your signature? In the form of rondha?

Ganjawulung

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all! Ganja-many thanks! A jalak budo is on my "to do" list! My signature is more on the peksi, a little stupa.....

[David]

I'm not sure if this is the best thread for this, but it does allow everyone to gawk at Lemmy's work once again.
Here is an interesting video showing the forging process of a keris. I just can't imaging how they did this before power tools.
http://kerisologi.multiply.com/video...n_Keris_bag.01

[Michel]

A long time ago, I started to forge a kris. I made several error in my forging and ended with a very small blade. To avoid wasting all my efforts, I decided to transform this heat welded blade in a kris patrem. Alan had told us : most of the work in kris forging, in not the forging but chiseling and filing. How right is he. Forging was not more than 5 to 10 % in time.
Once the blade completed (with errors !) I treated it not with acid, but with sulfur and salt and here is the result. I had to make the the necessary sarong and hulu adapted to its size. The total kris is only 23 cm long and the blade 14cm. This is also a lot of filing !
The mendak is the smallest I had in my reserves and I doubt I could find anything smaller even in Jogjakarta.
To work on such a small kris, does not make the work easy. Everything is so small that I have temporarily renounced to the small sculptures decorating the handle.
One thing is certain: my respect for the work of Alan and Lemythesmith has been multiplied by a factor.

[A. G. Maisey]

Not bad Michel, not bad at all. The first keris that I made was made before I ever took instruction from Pak Parman, and its not as good as yours.

The sulphur and salt will not stain a blade, it will only reveal topographic variation in the material. There is a non-arsenic etch that will give a blade some colour, which is sulphur and rice water. I used this a few times more than 50 years ago, but never on a new blade, only on old ones, and it worked more or less OK. I mixed the stuff to a paste and applied it to the blade, then wrapped the blade in plastic sandwich wrap. It took about a week to work.

Something that collectors of both keris and conventional knives do not appreciate or understand is that the work involved in making a good quality small blade is at least as great, possibly greater, than the work involved in making a good quality normal sized blade, and the skill level required is definitely greater. Very good quality small keris blades are frequently more expensive than very good quality normal size blades, and certainly much more scarce, but try selling them on a western market.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Michel, well done! A nice job-I like the "topographical" effect on the blade, nice shape too. I'm nearly done with another patrem which I've opted for a gongo iras brojol. If you let me know the diameter the mendak needs to be I have made a die for patrem mendak so I can stamp them from one piece-could send you one roughed out in copper if you wish, makes life a wee bit easier The patra carvings are not easy to get looking right-my new patrem has a horn Solo hilt and that was a swine to carve, and to get symetrical(ish)

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by lemmythesmith

Hi Michel, well done! A nice job-I like the "topographical" effect on the blade, nice shape too. I'm nearly done with another patrem which I've opted for a gongo iras brojol. If you let me know the diameter the mendak needs to be I have made a die for patrem mendak so I can stamp them from one piece-could send you one roughed out in copper if you wish, makes life a wee bit easier The patra carvings are not easy to get looking right-my new patrem has a horn Solo hilt and that was a swine to carve, and to get symetrical(ish)

Hi Michel,
nice small keris you have there. as you mention before, the harder part of keris making is making the detail(recikan) of the keris it self. In making the greneng we often use a very small saw similar to a saw we use on playwood. it is a very time concuming in making the greneng couse the sawing it self need high concentration and skill...

the other harder part is making the sogokan. what did you use for making the sogokan? a small grinder is an option, but it very risky . we some time use a special steel chisel for the sogokan and pijitan work.

About the mendak, we still can find a very small mendak which fit for a patrem here in Jakarta. Not always available but we still can find it.
I recon your keris handle is a little bit larger for the keris. but the warangka is a very nice job...Love your warangka...very nive job, congratulation on your patrem. Let us know if you dicide to make another keris.

Good day,
FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

[Michel]

Hi Alan,
Thank you for your kind words.
Yes, sulfur and salt do not stain properly a blade, the mixture prepared as you explained, using only sulfur and rice water, seems to eat away the weaker metal in my case the iron. the nickel resisting better appears in surface and gives these topographical irregularities. I think the salt is only accelerating the process (it took 24 hours only). I have not utilized rice water, only plain water, and am just wondering why rice water. Nik Rashidin Nick Hussein, who gave me the recipe, told me "rice water" also. I think there is a chemist in the forum, may be he could explain.
I have utilized the recipe on an old blade which was in my eyes completely pamorless with a decent result. I do not know how Henk (of the forum) saw that that blade was with pamor and encourage me to stain it.

Hi Lemythesmith
Thank you also for appreciating my efforts but I am a long way from the quality of your work. My peksi is 4.5 mm in diameter and the hulu is 12 mm diameter at its base. But I do not think that I would be able to adapt a mendak on the base of rought out coper base cup. I am no jeweler and lack that sort of experience and tools.

Hi Ferrylaki,
Thank you for your comments. To answer your questions : my ricikan were all done with files, as the greneng. I do not use a small grinder . As you say: it is too risky. A mistake is so easily done and often cannot be corrected.
You are right, my handle is a bit too big for the size of the keris. And it is the second one. My initial one was even larger and I had to redo it homothetically smaller. I think that my reference, also a patrem, has also a too large handle.
The answer to that is to do a third handle, smaller !
Thank you for suggesting to look in Jakarta for a smaller mendak. Mine is 6mm internal diameter and 15 mm external diameter and my hulu 12 mm. Now if I remake a correct sized handle, I will probably loose an other millimeter or two on the exterior diameter of the base of the hulu, so about 10 mm. Do you really think one can find such a small mendak ? If yes, it can be mailed in an envelop, if I cannot come and fetch it in Jakarta !
I will certainly make other krisses, but slowly ! An other day, I will show you my kris Panjang. An other size !
Thanks to all of you for your advices
Michel

[Henk]

Michel,

A very fine keris you made there.

But i also like the scabbard you made. Can you tell me how you made the tip and what material did you use to make the tip?

[Michel]

Hi Henk,
Thank you for the compliment. The tip is made of vegetable ivory as they call it. In fact it is tagua nut. A nut coming from a palm tree growing in South America. Extremely hard nuts, very similar to ivory hardness that can be cut and filed just as ivory. The nuts are not as large as ivory ! so the pieces you can cut and make with Tagua nuts are small (5 to 8 cm)
I had it come from South America.
Regards
Michel

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

I'm planning to buy a grinder for my keris project, but as Alan mention before about grinder fact, I guess a cold steel chisel would be just fine. spending more hours for the ricikan is the best way to make keris just like the old times.

people nowdays use grinder to shape the " odo odo" and the " gigir sapi"
and the result is more damage for biginers .
"It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade" as Alan said...than I must practice my patience first before I start working on my sogokan...couse if dont have patience you could destroy an entirely job on the ricikan. I found "no way back" on the ricikan job.

As an information Michel. I'm also trying a small mendak for my keris, it's not a patrem but its smaller than a normal keris...hope a manage to find two or three so I can offfer my spare for you... good day every body...

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

Hi Alan,
Thanks Alot for your advices. I found it very very difficult on shaping the greneng. We use a small jeweller saw here. and always manage to break the saw. I'll try using hack saw and small round files on the greneng.
I'll take some pictures on the keris we're working and some measures of the keris. Thank you for every advices.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

This keris is the first project which start to take its shape.
the picture took this morning ( 05.40am jakarta time) .
the greneng work done using small jewellers saw, done by a very skilled man for sure. when I find the fact using small jewellers saw is too diffficult to do, I start looking for another method for the greneng work. I really greatfull for Alan's suggestion. I'll try it on my next keris project. I'm still looking a suitable dhapur and ricikan style for this "saton" . A straight keris it gonna be , for a beginner like my self tilam upih would be great. I'm planning to make a PBX style...thick blade, odo-odo, etc.
Just cant wait till next week to start.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

Hi Alan,
the angel your talking about, the condong leleh.
I have a feeling that my saton has too much angel. this is a kelengan keris.
tilam sari would be great. thanks

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man.

You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably.

You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man.

You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably.

You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.

The problem at the moment is I cant find any besalen to adjust the angel.
so the next project must be changed to this keris. This keris has already took its shape. Most of the shaping worked by my brother, and a grinder was involved. We're now trying not to use grinder no more. files and hecksaw is an option.
I'll post another pictures for further progress on this keris.
hope we can make a healthy shape for this one. this is a kelengan ( pamor less keris )
the gonjo may be too small ... but it already took shape.I cant go back with the gonjo, so its done. filing and sharpening would be our next time consuming job.

FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, this blade needs to be refined by using scrapers. There is no more work for a hacksaw here, and the rough shaping has already been done, so there is limited work for a file. What you need now is to use scrapers to do the kruwingan and refine all the contours.

There are plenty of smiths in and around Solo. Just take the forging back there and alter the angle.Make sure you have your blak with you.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, this blade needs to be refined by using scrapers. There is no more work for a hacksaw here, and the rough shaping has already been done, so there is limited work for a file. What you need now is to use scrapers to do the kruwingan and refine all the contours.

There are plenty of smiths in and around Solo. Just take the forging back there and alter the angle.Make sure you have your blak with you.

Alan, can you discribe what a scraper looks like?
does sandpaper could become a scraper?
do you have a picture of scraper?
sorry for my lack of knowledge...

FERRYLAKI
Jakarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, if you go into a hardware store, or motor mechanics supply store and ask for a "skrap", they will show you a scraper that mechanics use to fit engine bearings. This is the large, commercially produced scraper you can see in the photos. This is a useful size to work the length of the blade and to rough out the kruwingan.

The other smaller scrapers have been made from three corner files. You can buy second hand ones from the junk markets. You just use a grinder to grind a radius onto the end of the file, and then sharpen it on a whetstone.

The funny looking bent tools are riffle files. You need these for refining the various contours. These files here are Dick files from Germany, which probably cost a king's ransom these days---I haven't bought any for maybe 10 years or more and the last one I bought cost me more than $50. However, you can buy Chinese ones in Indonesia. They're not as good, they do not last as long, but they can do the job, and they are much, much cheaper.

The chisels and gouges are made from old files and other tools, and a few are made from 01 tool steel. You use these to begin the shape of a feature and to remove big quantities of metal. They are not used for fine work.

The other tools I have use to make keris, and that are not shown here are normal small jewellers files, a 6" file, and big heavy 15" file, a hacksaw, and a small hammer. The hacksaw and big file are only used in the initial shaping stage.

Using only these tools, this is what can be produced:-

http://kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIImaisey2.html

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, if you go into a hardware store, or motor mechanics supply store and ask for a "skrap", they will show you a scraper that mechanics use to fit engine bearings. This is the large, commercially produced scraper you can see in the photos. This is a useful size to work the length of the blade and to rough out the kruwingan.

The other smaller scrapers have been made from three corner files. You can buy second hand ones from the junk markets. You just use a grinder to grind a radius onto the end of the file, and then sharpen it on a whetstone.

The funny looking bent tools are riffle files. You need these for refining the various contours. These files here are Dick files from Germany, which probably cost a king's ransom these days---I haven't bought any for maybe 10 years or more and the last one I bought cost me more than $50. However, you can buy Chinese ones in Indonesia. They're not as good, they do not last as long, but they can do the job, and they are much, much cheaper.

The chisels and gouges are made from old files and other tools, and a few are made from 01 tool steel. You use these to begin the shape of a feature and to remove big quantities of metal. They are not used for fine work.

The other tools I have use to make keris, and that are not shown here are normal small jewellers files, a 6" file, and big heavy 15" file, a hacksaw, and a small hammer. The hacksaw and big file are only used in the initial shaping stage.

Using only these tools, this is what can be produced:-

http://kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIImaisey2.html

wow, so many tools...
I really should complete my tools.
people these days depend on a grinder and replace the old method of keris making.
I'll try to find those tools from now on.
thank you very much for these helpfull pictures Alan.
I really appreciate your kindness.

FERRYLAKI
Jakarta