Bugis keris - Page 2

tom hyle · 17th March 2005, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Tom -- while clothes don't make a man, I'm sure good clothes would certainly open many doors. And I'm not quite sure what you meant by the proper dress phenomenon is not an old/traditional or Southeast Asian. If its with respect to kerises, it certainly is not right to say so. Discounting the 'tourist trade', the keris dress is defined by tradition/'adat'. If there is no 'adat', we could not have possibly differentiated between Sulawesi kerises from Balinese kerises from Riau kerises from Minang kerises, etc.

Perhaps you have misunderstood me, but I do not think you are correct. Allow me to explain. What would traditionally be done/appreciated by traditional kris appreciators (ie oceanic SE Asians) is not, at least to my understanding AT ALL to put say a Bali kris in Bali dress. Not at all not at all; rather to put whatever blade you get in the dress native to you, the owner (caretaker, etc....). So in the past if/when a Javanese acquired a Bugis k(e)ris and he considered it worthy to keep, he might conceivably leave it in whatever dress it came with, but he would certainly not get the idea, (say it were naked or poorly dressed or he couldn't stand/comprehend its dress) that the proper thing to do would be to dress it Bugis style; no, I cannot see that; he would dress it Javanese.

BluErf · 17th March 2005, 12:21 PM

Hi Tom,

I don't think we are in disagreement. I think we are just talking about different things. I agree fully with what you said here. That's why the Javanese blade ended up in the Terengganu sheath, and why Hang Tuah would have redressed Taming Sari in a Malay-style sheath.

The sheath in which the kerises are dressed in would no doubt be adherent to the 'adat' of the new owner's culture. I.e. while the blade is foreign, the dress is traditional.

Adat defines a Solonese sheath, which would be different from the adat that governs a Yogya sheath, from a Gayo sheath, from a Pattani sheath, from a Minang sheath, etc etc.

Bill · 18th March 2005, 05:02 AM

Here is the pics of the top of the ganga, but likely done when doctoring the keris. Sorry about the quality but its probably meaningless.

Alam Shah · 18th March 2005, 07:26 AM

Maybe it was something like this before...

Bill · 18th March 2005, 04:25 PM

Alam Shah, would think that is the effect someone attempted to copy, the gandik area was intentionally pitted, likely to hold some gold there also. Empu Kumis posted this link: http://www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/iron.html , that seems to touch on "trade blades". Can anyone supply more on this, time periods, other swords? What was the demand for these keris if the customer is once or twice removed from the Empu, sort of deminishes the mystic aspect, & the keris does'nt seem to be the best weapon. Is there a "standard" or examples of what is typical about the trade blades. If only brittal Chinese iron was used would they not generally lack pamor & brake easily if used?

Alam Shah · 19th March 2005, 07:09 AM

Bill, see this link. An example of another trade blade (assumed to be, after some discussion).
There are some opinions on trade blades.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=1&pp=30

Bill · 19th March 2005, 12:24 PM

I've found several referances to the Bugis making swords for trade, but don't know if they traded keris. I'm sure that as they migrated they took personal keris with them, add the Javanese trade blades & thier is sure to be some debate.

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:35 PM

There seems to be some confusion over the concept called "trade k(e)ris"; it seems to have two different definitions referring to seperate categories (though there may be some overlap); the "bundle" kris, of (in, evidently, varying degree) a more mass-produced nature than an ordinary k(e)ris, all 20 forged in a single session, and with at least less attention and concentration on the proper rituals (kind of like trying to make love to 20 women at once I should think; a common fantasy that has always seemed as silly to me as dogs chasing cars); and the term is also being used to refer to blades that were originally/long ago sold off-island. BTW, I have heard that the spirit in a k(e)ris doesn't like to/can't cross water; any info? Doesn't sound true to me. Mind you I dont mean it doesn't sound like a genuine cultural belief; what I mean is it doesn't sound like the way spirits in blades behave to my experience....and if the natives take it seriously, why do they move the blades around so much? And how could they carry them to war? (I understand that even the "oh, no it's a religious artistic talisman, not a [shudder] weapon" crowd don't dispute that k[e]ris were carried to war, for their magical properties, if nothing else) Not every war is among the people of a single island, of course.

Alam Shah · 19th March 2005, 01:10 PM

AFAIK, the Bugis are sea-faring people. That's why their existence are found around coastal regions across the Malay archipelego. They traded (and some are pirates, too).
> I have heard that the spirit in a k(e)ris doesn't like to/can't cross water; any info? Doesn't sound true to me.
Maybe the spirit is a "non-swimmer"

.
Seriously, not that I know of, (i may be wrong). What I've heard is that certain types of materials (eg: "besi kuning"); some belief that if the owner falls in the water, it makes the bearer sinks. And in some circumstances, can make the boat sink. I've yet to hear about keris, though.

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 03:33 PM

Thanks. It's just something someone mentioned to me in passing, with no in-depth; he said some natives believe it; that's all, but he is a person who is generally very knowlegable about this area.

18th March 2005, 05:02 AM	#33
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Here is the pics of the top of the ganga, but likely done when doctoring the keris. Sorry about the quality but its probably meaningless. Attached Images

18th March 2005, 07:26 AM	#34
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Maybe it was something like this before... Attached Images

19th March 2005, 07:09 AM	#36
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Trade blade... Bill, see this link. An example of another trade blade (assumed to be, after some discussion). There are some opinions on trade blades. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=1&pp=30

17th March 2005, 12:21 PM	#32
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Tom, I don't think we are in disagreement. I think we are just talking about different things. I agree fully with what you said here. That's why the Javanese blade ended up in the Terengganu sheath, and why Hang Tuah would have redressed Taming Sari in a Malay-style sheath. The sheath in which the kerises are dressed in would no doubt be adherent to the 'adat' of the new owner's culture. I.e. while the blade is foreign, the dress is traditional. Adat defines a Solonese sheath, which would be different from the adat that governs a Yogya sheath, from a Gayo sheath, from a Pattani sheath, from a Minang sheath, etc etc.

18th March 2005, 04:25 PM	#35
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Alam Shah, would think that is the effect someone attempted to copy, the gandik area was intentionally pitted, likely to hold some gold there also. Empu Kumis posted this link: http://www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/iron.html , that seems to touch on "trade blades". Can anyone supply more on this, time periods, other swords? What was the demand for these keris if the customer is once or twice removed from the Empu, sort of deminishes the mystic aspect, & the keris does'nt seem to be the best weapon. Is there a "standard" or examples of what is typical about the trade blades. If only brittal Chinese iron was used would they not generally lack pamor & brake easily if used?

19th March 2005, 12:24 PM	#37
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I've found several referances to the Bugis making swords for trade, but don't know if they traded keris. I'm sure that as they migrated they took personal keris with them, add the Javanese trade blades & thier is sure to be some debate.

19th March 2005, 12:35 PM	#38
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There seems to be some confusion over the concept called "trade k(e)ris"; it seems to have two different definitions referring to seperate categories (though there may be some overlap); the "bundle" kris, of (in, evidently, varying degree) a more mass-produced nature than an ordinary k(e)ris, all 20 forged in a single session, and with at least less attention and concentration on the proper rituals (kind of like trying to make love to 20 women at once I should think; a common fantasy that has always seemed as silly to me as dogs chasing cars); and the term is also being used to refer to blades that were originally/long ago sold off-island. BTW, I have heard that the spirit in a k(e)ris doesn't like to/can't cross water; any info? Doesn't sound true to me. Mind you I dont mean it doesn't sound like a genuine cultural belief; what I mean is it doesn't sound like the way spirits in blades behave to my experience....and if the natives take it seriously, why do they move the blades around so much? And how could they carry them to war? (I understand that even the "oh, no it's a religious artistic talisman, not a [shudder] weapon" crowd don't dispute that k[e]ris were carried to war, for their magical properties, if nothing else) Not every war is among the people of a single island, of course.

19th March 2005, 01:10 PM	#39
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	AFAIK, the Bugis are sea-faring people. That's why their existence are found around coastal regions across the Malay archipelego. They traded (and some are pirates, too). > I have heard that the spirit in a k(e)ris doesn't like to/can't cross water; any info? Doesn't sound true to me. Maybe the spirit is a "non-swimmer" . Seriously, not that I know of, (i may be wrong). What I've heard is that certain types of materials (eg: "besi kuning"); some belief that if the owner falls in the water, it makes the bearer sinks. And in some circumstances, can make the boat sink. I've yet to hear about keris, though.

19th March 2005, 03:33 PM	#40
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks. It's just something someone mentioned to me in passing, with no in-depth; he said some natives believe it; that's all, but he is a person who is generally very knowlegable about this area.