Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

[Bill M]

Recently acquired from Spiral this dagger was posted here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=satanic

Though the thread wandered, I think some excellent comments about Esmeralda and the Hunchback of Notre Dame were made.

I do not consider this to be a "satanic" piece. It does, however, have great presence and I am very grateful to Jonathon for offering it to me.

I would appreciate your comments. One thing I am curious about is the angle of the woman's head, I find this mildly disturbing.

[Bill M]

More detailed pictures

[katana]

Hi Bill,
this dagger was also discussed on Bernard Levine's forum and I posted a link to illustrations from 'Hunchback' which conclusively ID'ed this as Esmeralda. I feel that originally this dagger was themed on the story. However, later owners may indeed have believed it was satanic (as the story's fame subsided) and could have even been used as such

The picture (dated 1877) clearly shows various details, the necklace, the goat (Djali), the tambourine etc

The second picture shows Notre Dame with a spire, which may explain the scabbard. This is dated 1911 but I believe at that time the spire was no longer there.

Regards David

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Bill,
this dagger was also discussed on Bernard Levine's forum and I posted a link to illustrations from 'Hunchback' which conclusively ID'ed this as Esmeralda. I feel that originally this dagger was themed on the story. However, later owners may indeed have believed it was satanic (as the story's fame subsided) and could have even been used as such

The picture (dated 1877) clearly shows various details, the necklace, the goat (Djali), the tambourine etc

The second picture shows Notre Dame with a spire, which may explain the scabbard. This is dated 1911 but I believe at that time the spire was no longer there.

Regards David

Hi David,

Found the link on Bernard's forum
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/se...archid=2963629

I do think that you have a very good point about Esmeralda. I will try to research her and see what I might find in connection with this dagger. possibly she goes back further than mid 1800s.

Do you think the spire on Notre Dame could be the one on the scabbard? Would like to find some more clear images of it.

Thanks for the reply. Your remarks in the earlier thread were very good IMHO.

Bill

[spiral]

Yes its a lovely piece Bill, It was a pleasure to own.

I agree Katanas pics of Esmereldas necklace eventualy clinched it for me.

I was probably just bieng a stubbern mule for the point of debate having dug myself such a hole!

I Still find it interesting the its the only upside down scabbard Ive seen on these cast bronze knives. {yes Ive heard the arguments! But factualy its still the only one seen so far.} And so its still an upside down church though!

From the images I found of the spire at the time, this scabard roof seemed to be tiled in a very different manner, But perhaps someone can find other images.}



The spire is still there it looks like?



Dont know if its been rebuilt?

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Hi David,

Your remarks in the earlier thread were very good IMHO.

Bill

Thanks Bill

Originally Posted by spiral

I Still find it interesting the its the only upside down scabbard Ive seen on these cast bronze knives. {yes Ive heard the arguments! But factualy its still the only one seen so far.} And so its still an upside down church though!
Spiral

Hi Jonathon,
as you know I could not find an 'upside down' scabbard. There is the possibility that this signifies 'Satanism but, I believe it is more likely symbolic to the 'interpretation' of Hugo's story. ( all the examples of Satanic daggers I have seen do not have an 'inverted' decorated scabbard either)
'The hunchback of Notre Dame' , at first seems to be about 'unrequited love' but the story is deeper than that. Many literary critics see this story as an attack on the church (not Christianity or Religion), members of the church (in his eyes) had become corrupt, greedy and lacked compassion for their congregation. He saw that the values of Christianity that were preached were not adhered to by the clergy. (a case of 'talking the talk' but not 'walking the walk')

Esmeralda was not Christian and was considered a heathen. Yet, her character and actions are more Christian than the clergy characters. The inverted 'Notre Dame' scabbard is in 'opposition' to Esmeralda (she is symbolic of good ...the 'church' ....bad) Had the scabbard had Christ or other religious icon.... I think it would be a different story.

However, as a footnote, assuming this dagger is mid 19 th C, it coincides with the popularity of the story....and would probably be widely accepted as 'non satanic' . As time went on and memory fades ...I could see this dagger being adopted as 'satanic'.

Either way its a very good piece.

Kind Regards David

I've just noticed (in one of Bill's photos) that the roof tiles on the spire are right way up...when the spire is upside down

[Bill M]

I am still intrigued by how her head is dramatically inclined to her left. This was obviously done when it was cast and not later damage. Any ideas about this symbolism?

Perhaps sinister? (as opposed to dexter)

[Tim Simmons]

I think it is just that way because of rather clumsy modeling just look at the hands, arms and so on.

[Henk]

Bill,

I think the inclining of the head is modelled with purpose. Maybe like Tim said a bit clumsy.
It is in my opinion typically a possure of a woman giving affection to the dog. Women can look with tenderness to a little child or dog in this way. But I can imagine if you turn your head like this you need treatment to get your muscles in place again.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
her head is indeed inclined to the sinister 'side' ..... i.e. the left.(the original meaning of the word from the Latin "sinistra" meaning 'left' hand side) It could be concluded that it is symbolic that Esmeralda 'leans towards evil'. However the goat (demonised by the early church ) is on the right side (dexter) ...the 'good' side.

Typically in Art, a subjects stance or positioning could be slightly exaggerated to convey the Artist's 'meaning' to his/hers completed piece.
The leaning of the head to one side, exposes this vulnerable area to attack (a shallow cut could easily sever the carotid artery with fatal results) If the 'subject' is in this position ....it generally signifies two things ..vulnerability or that the 'subject' is totally at ease (trusting, loving, friendly) with the 'situation' shown in the piece. As Esmeralda is looking directly at her pet goat whilst in this position I believe it shows her vulnerability(as per the story) and her 'love' for her loyal companion... the goat.

Although I suspect some will say it is an expression of her 'love' and 'devotion' for Satan, personified by the goat Had there not been a story that inspired the hilt of your dagger ...the last suggestion could indeed be more likely.

Regards David

PS I mentioned before that the tiles/shingles on the scabbard are opposite way up in relation to the 'spire' , inverted candle sticks etc. I think that this is strange. Why would everything else be upside down...except the tiles....could it be deliberate and significant

[Bill M]

David (Katana),

I think that the modeling is intentional. In symbolic and heraldic study where and how objects are displayed is significant. Whether a figure looks to his right or left is intentional and has meaning.

The position of the head is unnatural, uncomfortable and disturbing to view.

I hope that David (Nescesh) will again reply as he knows quite a bit about these subjects. But let me add a few things.

The goat in WICCA is a significant fertility symbol. Baphomet as well as Pan is a goat-foot god. That Baphomet ("Old Horny) looks satanic has more to do with a Christian interpretation than it has to do with WICCA. which does not intentionally use Christian symbols.

The goat probably has to do with pagan fertility as Esmeralda was know as a pagan, Gypsy seductress. She also danced and played the tambourine.

If we can attribute this dagger to "The Hunchback...." it could have more to do with Hugo's commentary on the Church, which was certainly an underlying commentary in his work.

I need to do some more study on this and invite input.

Baphomet (This is an image used by Eliphas Levi who was more involved in Ceremonial Magik) the WICCAN symbol is similar, but I can't find a traditional Wiccan version right now. Suffice to say Baphomet was not intended to be a Satanic Christian-derived symbol, but a Pagan fertility god)

Note position of hands and moons.

[Tim Simmons]

Remarkably similar to Hindu black and white, Shiva/Kali concepts. I do have to question what Victor Hugo has to do with modern Wicca. I have read that it stems for rather too rich and discontented late Victorian thrill seekers. I can not remember all the story but Esmeralda was the good person refusing the cardinals advances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...and_Boline.JPG
The story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmeralda_(The_Hunchback_of_Notre_Dame)

I must find and the painting "Scape goat" to add to this goat symbolism.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/o.../scapegoat.asp

Esmeralda like the scape goat is a vehicle for the sins of rather naughty men, especially those hidden behind cloth.

[Jim McDougall]

I recall this intriguing dagger from the last thread, and its as if this, the sequel gets better and better! I have always been fascinated by art, and the study of the many hidden meanings often discovered long after the esoteric purposes of the artists had been lost. While of course, the intended perspectives can only be speculated, it seems that as more evidence is discovered and plausibilty presented, the possibilities become compelling.

This is exactly the type of investigation and thinking we have been hoping to expand with the thread on early makers markings. That is to discover not only any consistancies in the markings and inscriptions used on the trade blades that often found thier way into the hilts of many cultures, but the intricate meanings and symbolism found in them.

As this dagger clearly shows, there was indeed pronounced symbolism that involved deeply religious sentiments and often conflicts involving the church. In the case of the symbolism on markings and inscriptions on blades, the emphasis intended is of course typically apotropaic and reflecting faith and strength, and the depth of the meanings imbued in these are often very deep if not even much more so than displayed in this dagger. Just as in the theme of the dagger, often the motif used on blades carried considerable allegory, as clearly seen in the talismanic blades of l7th through 19th century.

I apologize for the deviation in bringing up the other thread, but could not resist mentioning it in hopes that some of you might bring the clearly advanced investigative skills you have shown in this topic to the theme of the thread on blade markings

With that, I completely agree that this is a fascinating dagger, and though it would be difficult to consider as satanic, I think it is interesting to consider the allegory that seems present. I recall thinking in the original thread that the scabbard must have been intended to view with point upward, but as David has astutely observed, the tiles position disagrees. This brings us back to the objective of the 'upside down church'.

It seems that it is often suggested that the upside down cross is supposed to represent satanic symbolism, and that might be in some cases, but in actuality the inverted cross represents St.Peter. It seems that he felt himself unworthy of crucifixion in the same manner as Christ, so insisted on being upside down, as told in symbolic lore.

Obviously there is always more than one side to any story, and so it goes with investigating symbolism in art, weapons, material culture, literature!
But you guys have been doing fantastic at analysis of this dagger, and hope you keep it going! Its really like a great book ! I think Hugo would be impressed!! Thanks very much everybody.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

If we sentance Esmeralder to death we are cleaned of our sins. How many times have you nearly crashed the car because you given in to SIN?

[kronckew]

wasn't esmerelda broken on the wheel and hung, her head would then be in such a position i'd guess?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Remarkably similar to Hindu black and white, Shiva/Kali concepts. I do have to question what Victor Hugo has to do with modern Wicca. I have read that it stems for rather too rich and discontented late Victorian thrill seekers. I can not remember all the story but Esmeralda was the good person refusing the cardinals advances.

I did not intend to draw references between Hugo and Wicca, I was only referring to the probability that the goat was a fertility symbol and that this symbol has little to do with satanism and is more a pagan concept.

I need to re-read the book, but the little I remember is that Hugo was trying to say that Esmeralda, though a pagan was essentially a better person than the Christian clergy. I may have this mixed up.

This is a very well-made dagger, sheath and hilt. The likelihood was that the maker was really trying to say something. I think that Katana really pointed us in the right direction with his ideas on Esmeralda and probably the Hunchback, but Esmeralda may be older than this. Curious as to where her original symbolism came from.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
done a little more research, and think I may have some answers.

Esmeralda, was kidnapped from her home whilst a young girl. Her original name (in Hugo's book) is Agnes and was changed by the Gypsies to Esmeralda, (a Spanish name for emerald). In fact the purse (green silk) around her neck contains a green piece of glass to remind her of her name (emerald-Esmeralda). Now it gets a bit more interesting, Agnes, her given name, is the name of a virgin martyr Saint. She is the patron saint of chastity, gardeners, girls, engaged couples, rape victims and virgins.

"......According to her legend, Saint Agnes was a member of the Roman nobility born c. 291 and raised in a Christian family. She suffered martyrdom at the age of thirteen during the reign of the Eastern Roman Emperor Diocletian, on January 21, 304.

The prefect Sempronius wished Agnes to marry his son, and on Agnes' refusal he condemned her to death. Roman law did not permit the execution of virgins, Sempronius had a naked Agnes dragged through the streets to a brothel. As she prayed, her hair grew and covered her body. It was also said that all of the men who attempted to rape her were immediately struck blind. When led out to die she was tied to a stake, but the bundle of wood would not burn, whereupon the officer in charge of the troops drew his sword and struck off her head, or, in some other texts, stabbed her in the throat.

A few days after Agnes' death, a girl named Emerentiana was found praying by her tomb; she claimed to be the daughter of Agnes' wet nurse, and was stoned to death after refusing to leave the place and reprimanding the pagans for killing her foster sister. Emerentiana was also later canonized...."

Agnes is represented in art as a blonde young girl in robes, holding a palm branch in her hand and a lamb ( Esmeralda a goat) at her feet or in her arms.



It would seem that Esmeralda Character is based on St Agnes.

Interestingly both Agnes and Esmeralda died by trauma to the neck ...... I think that is why the neck position is so exaggerated.

Kind Regards
David

[David]

I think the neck position was merely the artist's attempt to depict the character (Esmeralda) looking lovingly at the goat. This is a nice dagger, but Michelangelo this artist ain't.
We could spend a great deal of time discussing Hugo's work Notre-Dame de Paris and exactly what his intention were in his development of the character of Esmeralda, but this is not a literary forum and i would be willing to bet that the artist who created this knife did it as a direct rendition of the character from the book, not Hugo's deeper modivations or influences such as the story of St. Agnes (as interesting as that story might be).
Bottom line Bill is that IMHO, sometimes a goat is just a goat and a strange neck bend just that as well. Even though you are dismissing the early, rather rediculous idea that this was some kind of "satanic" dagger you still seem to be looking for the occult in this blade. I don't think you will every find it in any convincing manner. Personally i think this blade is just what it appears to be, a nicely crafted commemorative depicting a scene from Victor Hugo's Hunchback novel, which was, indeed, about much more than a love affair between a beauty and a grotesque.
Hugo's original title Notre-Dame de Paris is so named because he felt that the cathedral itself was the main character of the book. The fact that it is upside-down on the sheath, if one chooses to orient it that way (maybe it's Esmeralda and the goat that are upside-down ) i believe is merely because the shape of a cathedral comes to a natural point like the dagger.
This link was probably posted in the original thread but here goes anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hun..._of_Notre_Dame

[spiral]

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?



From this thread, many more photos...


linky




Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.

Interesting discusian chaps!


Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?
Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.
Interesting discusian chaps!

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it.
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it.
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines.

I have no idea David about that dagger either, same as you.

When I originaly posted the esmerelda dagger my assumptions were based on a few examples I had seen in various threads. {Which the more examples one reads the more one spots errors generaly.} Luckily I still learn more about many things evry week & try not to hold on to unprooven knoweledge for to long.

I explained earlier in this thread where I am with this know.

Glad you found the linked knife interesting. Its looks "satanic" so I personaly would accept it bieng called that but so does much old art.

No mirrors or emotians in this one for me anymore David.

Just thought I could see some new bright angles mentioned & discused by some & some other comments that would have fitted better in the first thread, rather than this one

But its all eye of the beholder, I guess. Perheps I was mistaken. Only the writer of each post in this thread will know what this knife & its past threads hold for them.

Personaly I thought the neck of Esmerelda was made at that angle so it made her neck & shuolder a more comfterable place to lay ones thumb.

But that was just my reaction to it. Artistic licence, deeper meaning, all of the above? who knows? Intresting though.

Its a nice dagger I think.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This sold for a good bit over £100 in spite of the seller calling it a paper knife. This surely establishes these as theme daggers much like the fantasy work of today.




Could make a nice toy to play with, if you like that sort of thing

[spiral]

Nice peace Tim, quite common though..

Thats one of the famous ones made by G Wostenholm in Sheffield, one of a serious of 6 i recall? {as I said earlier, my learning has moved on.}

You didnt buy it? I am speachless. Each to thier own I guess.

Heres another one....





From.

linky

Have a look at the price Tim. With a proper discription the seller would have done well.

But surely to my mind a dagger with a satanic theme should be called a "satanic" dagger with a Mohican theme should be called "Mohican"?

One with flowers all over it would be called "floral"?

No one in this thread has refered to them as a ritual knives, that thread was last year...


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Having at least one in the house might be rather fun.

[katana]

Hi,
I agree that sometimes 'things are what they are' and that others can create meaning to an object that has none. However, I do not assume this to be so for any object, I try to keep an 'opened mind'...'collect' possible facts first and then take an educated 'guess' from that info. The possible symbolism, could be relavent, this may indeed be a themed dagger in conception.....but later owners may have drawn their own conclusions and could have been used as a so called 'satanic dagger' ...

But there are 'anomalies' with this dagger's hilt and scabbard which could be just 'mistakes' or omissions....or could have some meaning.

I agree, (as I said before) that Esmeralda is looking 'lovingly' at her pet goat. Her stance, the goats positioning etc supports this.Yet her eyes are 'lifeless' or closed, the goat on the other hand has detail to its eyes
You could argue that the classical statues of Greece also have this 'look', but originally the eyes were painted and due to time the paint has eroded.

Sorry to 'labour' this point but....I cannot understand why the craftsman whom produced the scabbard put the tiles 'right way up' to the viewer but 'upside' down to the orientation of the spire A very strange mistake......if indeed this was a mistake.

Spiral, have you found any info on the blade?

Regards David

[spiral]

I agree Katana figural daggers may have been made for varied purposes or used as such later in thier life. Same as many knives.

Some clearly have Satanic themes, others may or may not & some clearly dont. I have seen no evidence of these bieng ritual knives but dont say its impossible.

Many organsations , groups & indivduals, like particular knives for particular purposes after all.

The blade style is typical of French figural knives of the period, some of which have "satanic" themes & some of which dont. It does appear to have been cut out of an older blade though. This is also common of those with Satanic themes that often used blades from Napoleans Mamuluke daggers from about 1805? I seem to recall? Whether its common in French figural knives without "satanic" themes I dont know. But I rather suspect many of these were made by the same workshops of sculpters & old blades were available & perhaps saved employing a cutler with a forge? They were just, cut ground, drilled etc.

But that is just my conjecture.

Indeed Tim, I did enjoy that one while it was in my company.

Intrestingly I noticed "non knife" people particularily women found it fascinating. But then I guess most of them were artists.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

You can keep the knife I will stick with the fantasy

[spiral]

Reality is more fun though Tim.

spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Do not try and kid me you have one at home.

[spiral]

I wasnt Tim, Not for the last 3 years, I do still luckily have those who visit though.

Spiral