Indian Ceremonial Brass/Bronze Spear head ??

katana · 22nd November 2007, 08:22 PM

Could this be a ceremonial spear/lance head from India or neighbouring countries.

OAL 16" (approx 41cms)
maximum width 4 3/4 " (12cms)
socket diameter (to fix to shaft) approx 1.5" (3.8 cms)
Blade approx. 8" (20cms)

Any ideas, thank you

katana · 24th November 2007, 04:34 PM

Bump

Have I got this wrong, are there no examples of Indo Persian parade /ceremonial brass spearheads (or perhaps a flag/banner finial) with which I can compare this one to ?

The socket size is too large for a curtain rod finial

... I hope

In the close up photo ..the 'cut out' sections could easily be representations of eyes and a nose, there area below the nose has a 'feline jaw' look about it ...with whiskers ......a tiger ?

Has anyone any ideas..... good ...or bad

Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 24th November 2007, 05:02 PM

Hi David,

To me it looks like two birds, maybe peacocks, but the casting looks rather crude – is it?

Jens

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2007, 06:50 PM

This does seem to be a ceremonial or parade weapon, probably from southern India or quite possibly Sinhalan. I dont have the resource on Sinhalese weapons handy but I think there may be similar forms shown there:
"Sinhala Weapons and Armour" P.E.P. Deraniyagala
Journal of the Ceylon Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society
Vol. XXXV, #95, Part 3, Dec.1942

The banded shaft socket seems characteristic of these South Indian and Ceylonese polearms.

David's observation that the decoration on this piece is possibly the face of the tiger is very astute, though this does not seem to be the case here.The kirtimukha (stylized lion mask) is often employed as motif on arms and over temple gateways and the differentiation between tiger and lion seems in degree unclear in reviewing the complexities of stylized motif in Indian art.

While I cannot see the imagery of the peacock noted by Jens, and agree the casting seems crude, I agree that the motif may be that of the peacock feathers, presented symmetrically of course. Peacock feathers carried most important symbolism in Hindu art, and especially on weapons as the peacock represented Karttikeya, the god of war, and Son of Siva. The feathers were often used as an insignia of kingship, with deeper symbolism of immortality and power.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 24th November 2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi David,

To me it looks like two birds, maybe peacocks, but the casting looks rather crude – is it?

Jens

Hi Jens,
nice to hear from you

I think you're right,

birds it is

I don't have it in my possession at the moment, I am informed that it appears relatively old, and the casting has been 'knocked around' . The photo does suggest crude casting, but I'm not certain whether it is minor damage or poorly made

Are there brass ceremonial weapons in Indo Persian culture?

Have Peacocks a symbollic or cultural meaning ?

Kind Regards David

katana · 24th November 2007, 07:21 PM

Hi Jim

,
seems we posted at the same time ..... interesting points about the kirtimukha and the information about the peacock symbolism. Thank you

The design could be a sort of morphic combination of tiger(lion) /peacock

The design of the socket does indeed make me think of Southern India, had never considered Ceylon

Kind Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 24th November 2007, 10:31 PM

Hi David,

The tiger, the lion and the peacock were royal animals. The horse as well if I remember correctly. Besides, the peacock is a very good watch bird, as it makes an awful noise when it is disturbed.

Well said Jim, you don’t seem to need all your books

.

Jens

VANDOO · 25th November 2007, 04:03 AM

THE TWO SIDE PRONGS ARE THE BIRDS TAILS GOING TOWARD THE SOCKET IT COMES TO THE BIRDS LEG, GOING TOWARD THE BLADE TIP IT CURVES AROUND TO FORM THE 2 BIRDS HEADS. THE PEACOCK WAS OFTEN USED IN INDIA AND ROYALTY LIKED TO HAVE THEM AROUND THEIR GARDENS BECAUSE THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL ,MADE GOOD WATCH BIRDS AND WERE VERY TASTY.

THE HOLES COULD FORM A SECONDARY DESIGN WHICH COULD BE TIGER OR SKULL

I WOULD CONSIDER IT A CEREMONIAL OR DECORATIVE POINT FOR PROCESSIONS.

THE CHINESE MOSTLY FAVORED THE HO-HO BIRD OR PHOENIX AND LATER EUROPEANS TALKED OF THE LYRE BIRD OR BIRD OF PARADISE. I DON'T KNOW IF THE PEACOCK WAS THE REASON FOR THE LEGEND OF THE PHOENIX OR NOT BUT BOTH IT AND SOME OF THE ORIENTAL PHESANTS WOULD BE CONTINDERS.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2007, 05:13 AM

You're very welcome David!
Thank you so much for the kind words Jens! I still have my trusty Elgood, but still really miss the others!!!

katana · 30th November 2007, 07:22 PM

The two ceremonial spearheads have arrived. The decoration is hand chiselled brass. The socket appears to be cast bronze, hand finished and decorated. The socket opening is not perfectly round and seems that mechanical tools were not used in their construction. The patina on both of them suggests some age, and I could easily see these being 19th C.

katana · 2nd December 2007, 10:02 PM

I was fortunate to find this example for sale on an Arms Dealer's site.

"... INDIAN PALACE POLEARM FROM CEYLON (SRI LANKA) circa 1850. 92 inches overall. Thick 1 ½ inch wood shaft. The brass head is 16 ½ inches and beautifully decorated...."

Other than the fact my two examples are 0.5" shorter at 16", the pole diameter is the same as mine. With very similar design and execution.

Well done Jim, Ceylon seems almost certain where these originate

Regards David

katana · 10th December 2007, 07:47 PM

Found this very poor picture, but has a very similar design (overall) .... A spear head from Mindanao, Philippines

"....The ornaments on the Mindanao spear are of the mythical rooster-like bird the Sarimanok. This bird is often associated with the local concept that the human soul is transformed into a beautiful bird, the Sarinamok, at death.

In both cases, I believe the ornamentation, which serves no real practical purpose, represents the opening of the Underworld often thought of as the gaping mouth of a reptilian or bird-like creature......."

22nd November 2007, 08:22 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Indian Ceremonial Brass/Bronze Spear head ?? Could this be a ceremonial spear/lance head from India or neighbouring countries. OAL 16" (approx 41cms) maximum width 4 3/4 " (12cms) socket diameter (to fix to shaft) approx 1.5" (3.8 cms) Blade approx. 8" (20cms) Any ideas, thank you Attached Images

24th November 2007, 04:34 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Bump Have I got this wrong, are there no examples of Indo Persian parade /ceremonial brass spearheads (or perhaps a flag/banner finial) with which I can compare this one to ? The socket size is too large for a curtain rod finial ... I hope In the close up photo ..the 'cut out' sections could easily be representations of eyes and a nose, there area below the nose has a 'feline jaw' look about it ...with whiskers ......a tiger ? Has anyone any ideas..... good ...or bad Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 24th November 2007 at 04:55 PM.

24th November 2007, 10:31 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi David, The tiger, the lion and the peacock were royal animals. The horse as well if I remember correctly. Besides, the peacock is a very good watch bird, as it makes an awful noise when it is disturbed. Well said Jim, you don’t seem to need all your books. Jens

30th November 2007, 07:22 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The two ceremonial spearheads have arrived. The decoration is hand chiselled brass. The socket appears to be cast bronze, hand finished and decorated. The socket opening is not perfectly round and seems that mechanical tools were not used in their construction. The patina on both of them suggests some age, and I could easily see these being 19th C. Attached Images

2nd December 2007, 10:02 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I was fortunate to find this example for sale on an Arms Dealer's site. "... INDIAN PALACE POLEARM FROM CEYLON (SRI LANKA) circa 1850. 92 inches overall. Thick 1 ½ inch wood shaft. The brass head is 16 ½ inches and beautifully decorated...." Other than the fact my two examples are 0.5" shorter at 16", the pole diameter is the same as mine. With very similar design and execution. Well done Jim, Ceylon seems almost certain where these originate Regards David Attached Images

24th November 2007, 05:02 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi David, To me it looks like two birds, maybe peacocks, but the casting looks rather crude – is it? Jens

24th November 2007, 06:50 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This does seem to be a ceremonial or parade weapon, probably from southern India or quite possibly Sinhalan. I dont have the resource on Sinhalese weapons handy but I think there may be similar forms shown there: "Sinhala Weapons and Armour" P.E.P. Deraniyagala Journal of the Ceylon Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society Vol. XXXV, #95, Part 3, Dec.1942 The banded shaft socket seems characteristic of these South Indian and Ceylonese polearms. David's observation that the decoration on this piece is possibly the face of the tiger is very astute, though this does not seem to be the case here.The kirtimukha (stylized lion mask) is often employed as motif on arms and over temple gateways and the differentiation between tiger and lion seems in degree unclear in reviewing the complexities of stylized motif in Indian art. While I cannot see the imagery of the peacock noted by Jens, and agree the casting seems crude, I agree that the motif may be that of the peacock feathers, presented symmetrically of course. Peacock feathers carried most important symbolism in Hindu art, and especially on weapons as the peacock represented Karttikeya, the god of war, and Son of Siva. The feathers were often used as an insignia of kingship, with deeper symbolism of immortality and power. Best regards, Jim

24th November 2007, 07:21 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim , seems we posted at the same time ..... interesting points about the kirtimukha and the information about the peacock symbolism. Thank you The design could be a sort of morphic combination of tiger(lion) /peacock The design of the socket does indeed make me think of Southern India, had never considered Ceylon Kind Regards David

25th November 2007, 04:03 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE TWO SIDE PRONGS ARE THE BIRDS TAILS GOING TOWARD THE SOCKET IT COMES TO THE BIRDS LEG, GOING TOWARD THE BLADE TIP IT CURVES AROUND TO FORM THE 2 BIRDS HEADS. THE PEACOCK WAS OFTEN USED IN INDIA AND ROYALTY LIKED TO HAVE THEM AROUND THEIR GARDENS BECAUSE THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL ,MADE GOOD WATCH BIRDS AND WERE VERY TASTY. THE HOLES COULD FORM A SECONDARY DESIGN WHICH COULD BE TIGER OR SKULL I WOULD CONSIDER IT A CEREMONIAL OR DECORATIVE POINT FOR PROCESSIONS. THE CHINESE MOSTLY FAVORED THE HO-HO BIRD OR PHOENIX AND LATER EUROPEANS TALKED OF THE LYRE BIRD OR BIRD OF PARADISE. I DON'T KNOW IF THE PEACOCK WAS THE REASON FOR THE LEGEND OF THE PHOENIX OR NOT BUT BOTH IT AND SOME OF THE ORIENTAL PHESANTS WOULD BE CONTINDERS.

26th November 2007, 05:13 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	You're very welcome David! Thank you so much for the kind words Jens! I still have my trusty Elgood, but still really miss the others!!!

10th December 2007, 07:47 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Found this very poor picture, but has a very similar design (overall) .... A spear head from Mindanao, Philippines "....The ornaments on the Mindanao spear are of the mythical rooster-like bird the Sarimanok. This bird is often associated with the local concept that the human soul is transformed into a beautiful bird, the Sarinamok, at death. In both cases, I believe the ornamentation, which serves no real practical purpose, represents the opening of the Underworld often thought of as the gaping mouth of a reptilian or bird-like creature......." Attached Images