Seven spears from same origin?

[fernando]

Hello please help to ID these blades.
They would be African, right ?
Most probably from same origin, people or tribe ?
Would they be for fighting or rather hunting ?. Both one of those and also ceremonial ?
As old as XIX century, or rather modern ?
Thanks a lot for all possible help.
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

These are from the Southern Sudan and Congo borders. A single spear head is an object with the main part missing. A large group of spear heads becomes a collection with a pin point theme and can be added to with not too great expense.

[fernando]

Thank you Tim,
I should have said in the first place that i didn't yet buy these pieces.
The seller opens his mouth too wide, i think the price he wants is implausible.
I will send you an email with the figures envolved, for your coment, if you don't mind
On the other hand, if i only buy one or two, i loose the sense of collection, as you well pinpoint yourself.
Just please tell me if it is a pitty i let them go
Are they hunting, fighting or ( also ) ceremonial ? i put it that way because of the intense barbing, more than enough to do the actual job, i would say?
Thanks again
fernando

[dennee]

Knowing next to nothing about African spears, they may be ceremonial, but they seem to be at least derived from hunting types because of the barbs. One would generally not want one's spear to get caught in a human opponent during combat (as opposed to an arrow or even javelin perhaps), but if stuck in a severely wounded large animal, that animal could be tracked to its death or dispatched with a coup de grace whne weakened. One could presumably retrieve the spear head by cutting it out during butchering.

[Freddy]

As Tim said, these spearpoints are from the Northeastern border of Congo. This is the Ubangi-area. Main tribes are the Zande and Mangbetu.

These spearpoints are fitted to light shaft and then used as throwing spears. In fact, they are harpoons as the barbs prevent the spearpoint from slipping from the animal's body.

In the book 'IJzerwerk van Centraal-Afrika' (Ironwork from Central Africa) by H. Westerdijk, the authors states that there are two types of harpoonspears : those with a fixed point and those with a loose point. The ones with a loose spearpoint (although fastened to the shaft by means of a cord) are only used for the hunt.
The ones with a fixed spearpoint were also used for war.

The spearpoints you showed are of the last type, so used for hunting as well as for war.

[fernando]

Thank you Dennee
My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job.
So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting.

Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go.
Dank u wel
fernando

[Jim McDougall]

These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear.
Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn.

It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.

[katana]

Hi Fernando,
good find I really like this type of spear.....although I would not want to be on the 'receiving' end of one I was lucky enough to find 3 complete spears late 19c/ early 20th...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=zande

Regards David

[fernando]

Thanks for the dinamic input, Jim.
This means that this set of seven blades, all having parts of identical pattern, could have belonged to one same warrior ?!

Hi David
And i thaught all these barbs were to tickle the opponents
Thanks for the link with your nice examples.
This could mean that the seven units posted here could also be from the XIX century ? A coment nobody brought in, yet. As allways, age is of primary importance for me.

David, do you remember how much you have paid for your three blades ?
You could tell me that by PM or email ?

Thanks in advance

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back.

The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study.

The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described .

The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control.

Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together.

I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

The Roman pilum had a thin shaft between the spear head and the wooden haft. Designed to 'bend' on impact so that the spear could not be thrown back at them. I would imagine that the barbs were a solution to the same problem. Imbedded in a shield and hard to remove, the shield would be heavy and unwieldly, nullifying the defence of your enemy and also preventing them being thrown back. Obviously those that hit their human targets would be also difficult and painful to remove even if they struck non-vital areas of the body. The 'complete' spears that I have are firmly fixed so removing the shaft from the 'imbedded' spear head would not be an option (in the heat of battle.)
I can imagine trying to defend yourself with 6 foot of spear protruding from your body would not be an ideal situation.

My belief is that the triangular barbed heads are mainly for war, the smaller 'oval' headed are hunting / war and the last 'needle pointed' version is likely for 'fishing'.

[fernando]

Is everybody forgetting another use for Zande spears?
I have just read they used them for trading marriages. It seems as the bridgegroom has to give the girls father some ten pieces, within time prior to the comitment.
Perhaps these seven blades were part of a dowry, as the bride fled before the entangling took place
Maybe only the unshafted blades were handed over, in these rituals. That would explain why these specific examples don't show any traces of shafts having been in place ... my fantasy.

fernando

[Jim McDougall]

I think that the lack of a shaft or evidence of having been shafted (uh, been there..done that!! may indicate these had been stored in one of the arsenals in the Sudan, perhaps Khartoum. During the Mahdist period in the Sudan, huge numbers of weapons were accumulated to supply the massive forces of the Mahdi. If these were not mounted, perhaps that would suggest they had not been with the weapons of a particular warrior after all.

Interesting material on the Roman spears and shows how even ancient concepts were still applied to 'modern' warfare in tribal cultures. While using ancient weaponry and tactics against then modern technology, these warriors were not only formidable, but extremely deadly. The note on the incapacitation of the victim with spear imbedded is well placed, and the wound itself even without the inconvenience of protruding shaft seems like it would preclude any further combat from that individual.

So the spears were used in weddings/marraiges? Ah ha! Well , I guess we could probably get lots of mileage on that note but I'll leave well enough alone...I honestly had not heard of weapons in dowries, usually cattle or livestock, but very plausible idea.

[VANDOO]

A VERY NICE GROUP SHOWING SEVERAL FORMS ALL WELL MADE. TWO OF THE POINTS HAVE DAMMAGE TO THE BARBS THE ONE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT ESPECIALLY , SO THEY MAY HAVE SEEN USE. THESE COME ACROSS AS BEAUTIFUL TO ME DESPITE THEIR SPIKES BUT IF ONE WAS THREATENING ME WOULD NO LONGER LOOK PRETTY

[kronckew]

there was an earlier post here on a similar barbed spear, i recall, where we discussed it's possible mahdi-ist origins, i remember posting a reference to a article, written by winston churchill - who was at the battle of omdurman as a cavalryman - with reference to the 'fishhook spears' - and another about medical treatment after the battle and how the doctors had difficulty removing the spears from wounded soldiers because of the wicked barbs on them.....

[Jim McDougall]

Kronckew,
I'd sure like to find that reference!!! Anybody out there know where we might locate this?

[kronckew]

the reference to 'fishhook spears' stuck in the bodies of returning wounded is of course in winston's article referenced above, i'm having fun re-finding the medical reference, but here are a few more:

http://www.michaelstevenson.com/africanart/essay.htm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...649D94699ED7CF

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~th...ancers1898.htm

one there makes reference to long leaf shaped blades and barbed, fishing spears being collected to arm the mahdi's sudanese...interesting.

another of them while written supposedly about the gulf war, is mostly about african weapons as 19c. war trophies brought back by soldiers and the lucrative trading in them there which sparked a local market, so many of them we find in estates in the UK may have been made 'after'. sobering thought.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent!! Thank you very much Kronckew!!
Jim