Bukharan handles

ariel · 16th September 2007, 05:26 AM

Torben Flindt, in his chapter on arms from Bukhara ( "Islamic Arms and Armour" Robert Elgood, Ed. London Scholar Press, 1979) mentioned that Bukharan handles were characterized by 5 large rivets.
The closest to the Bukharan are the Afghani arms: geographically and culturally ( Northern Afghanistan, including Mazar-i-Sharif are ethnically Uzbek).

Here are 5 Afghani swords: pseudo-shashkas, Khybers and a smaller Choora. In all, there are 3 rivets ( large or small). All are arranged in a vertical order as 1 x1 x 1.
Next, are Bukharan ( for sure) saber ( Mechanical Damascus) and a "Khyber" - like large dagger, most likely Bukharan (Wootz).
Both have 5 rivets ( pretty small): 2 x 1 x 2 configuration.
Are we to accept that no matter the size of the rivets, the 2 x 1 x 2 configuration is a unique and definitive sign of the Bukharan origin?
( Under Bukharan, I also include other Central Asian Khanates)

Philip · 16th September 2007, 08:10 AM

Ariel,
I have an example of one of these sabers whose horn grip is made of one piece. Just behind the blade bolster is a niello silver sleeve that covers about 2/3 of the length of the grip itself. The horn part that is visible behind that is unitary, there is no tang band nor are there any rivet heads in evidence.

A specimen in the Henri Moser collection (cat. no. 425) has a grip very much like that on my saber, it has the same profile and oval cross-section, but it is entirely sheathed in silver. Cat. no. 424 in the same collection has a one-piece jade grip.

Moser cat. no. 426 is interesting in that its grip is formed by two horn scales held to the tang band by.... THREE rivets, in line.

All three of the Moser speciments are published in:

E. Rohrer, "Orientalische Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels: die Waffen aus Turkestan", in JAHRBUCH SES BERNISCHEN HISTORISCHEN MUSEUMS IN BERN, xxvii. Jahrgang, Bern: Buchdruckerei K. J. Wyss Erben AG, 1948, pp. 70-73; plate XC

R. Zeller and E. Rohrer, ORIENTALISCHE SAMMLUNG HENRI MOSER-CHARLOTTENFELS: BESCHREIBENDER KATALOG DER WAFFENSAMMLUNG [same publisher, 1955], Chapter 4.

My colleague Scott Rodell took photos of several more examples of Bukhara sabers in the Museum of Oriental Cultures in Moscow over 15 yr. ago, I need to retrieve them from my image files (they are 35mm photoprints) to study their hilt design. I will post the info once I locate them.

ariel · 16th September 2007, 12:51 PM

Perhaps, my question was not formulated well.
From the top: while not all Bukharan handles have rivets at all, and some may have 3 rivets, the presence of 5 rivets identifies the handle as Bukharan.
Would that be correct?

Jens Nordlunde · 16th September 2007, 04:29 PM

The way i read the text in Torben W. Flindt’s article on page 23, it says. “Hilts. When wood or horn were used, the gripshells were held together by three to five rather large iron rivets whose size may be regarded as a Bukharan Characteristic.”

To me it seems as if Torben means, not only the number of rivets, but also the size of the iron rivets.

ariel · 17th September 2007, 12:18 AM

Correct; I mentioned the size in my original posting.
My examples, however, have 5 small rivets.
Whereas some Bukharan weapons could have had 3 rivets, do you know of any piece ( Afghani, Indian or Persian) that has 5 rivets (any size) and is not Bukharan?
If the "5-rivet" sign is valid, that would simplify ID of weapons in the future.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th September 2007, 01:23 PM

Ariel,

In Arms and Armour, Rolli books, 2005 by E. Jaiwant Paul, page 72, you can see these two. The text to the one with the dark hilt does not say much, other than it is in the National Museum, about the other one he writes that it is from Mysore, 18th century AD, National Museum.

I don’t know what Torben Flindt ment about the rivets, but could it be, that the ends of the rivets used in Bukhara were bigger than the ends used elsewhere?

ariel · 17th September 2007, 05:08 PM

Looking at Artzi's site, he has examples of 2-rivet, 3-rivet, 5-rivet and even 4-rivet handles on weapons from Bukhara, but only one would conceivably qualify for " large-ish" rivets.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=434
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=417
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1321
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2215
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2029
One of my pseudoshashkas ( the leftmost one) has Afghani stamps from Mazar-i-Sharif ( admittedly Uzbeki territory), and 3 rather large rivets.
The peshkabzes you show, IMHO, are unlikely to be made in Mysore: too far South for a typically Northern weapon. Were they brought assembled from Bukhara? Who knows... And, in general, Paul's book does not impress me as a reliable source of info.
My bottom line: small rivets can come from everywhere; large ones are more likely to come from Uzbeki tradition. Three rivets are of no help, but 5 rivets are likely to come from Bukhara. Five large rivets clinch the deal.
Agreed?
Sounds like a Sherlock Holmes' title " The case of five large rivets"

Rick · 17th September 2007, 06:05 PM

What do we have here ariel ?
Bukharan ?

spiral · 17th September 2007, 06:31 PM

mmmm very nice Rick, the oblique cross cut of dark rhino horn is typicaly Bukharan.

The 5 small rivets pattern was certanly common in 19th century English made knives. Not sure whether thats relevant or not?

Spiral

ariel · 17th September 2007, 06:51 PM

Nine rivets?
Must be a Mother of all Bukharans!

Spiral is right: the rhino horn cut does look Bukharan, and this confirms the rivet theory.
Masalski observed making wootz ingots in Bukhara in the mid-19th century.
Any distinct features of Bukharan wootz?

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2007, 04:13 PM

Ariel,

Many weapons did, as we know, travel a lot, so the Mysore one, most likely is a traveller. I agree with you on Jaiwant Paul, and a few others no doubt, but the pictures are getting better and better the more books he publishes

.

The five rivets are likely to come from Bukhara or somewhere north, but I think the big rivets very likely come from Bukhara. I don’t know about any special watering used in the area, and the Moser collection has been packed away for some years now, so try to ask Rivkin, he may have the answer.

16th September 2007, 05:26 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Bukharan handles Torben Flindt, in his chapter on arms from Bukhara ( "Islamic Arms and Armour" Robert Elgood, Ed. London Scholar Press, 1979) mentioned that Bukharan handles were characterized by 5 large rivets. The closest to the Bukharan are the Afghani arms: geographically and culturally ( Northern Afghanistan, including Mazar-i-Sharif are ethnically Uzbek). Here are 5 Afghani swords: pseudo-shashkas, Khybers and a smaller Choora. In all, there are 3 rivets ( large or small). All are arranged in a vertical order as 1 x1 x 1. Next, are Bukharan ( for sure) saber ( Mechanical Damascus) and a "Khyber" - like large dagger, most likely Bukharan (Wootz). Both have 5 rivets ( pretty small): 2 x 1 x 2 configuration. Are we to accept that no matter the size of the rivets, the 2 x 1 x 2 configuration is a unique and definitive sign of the Bukharan origin? ( Under Bukharan, I also include other Central Asian Khanates) Attached Images

16th September 2007, 08:10 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	variations on Bukharan saber grips Ariel, I have an example of one of these sabers whose horn grip is made of one piece. Just behind the blade bolster is a niello silver sleeve that covers about 2/3 of the length of the grip itself. The horn part that is visible behind that is unitary, there is no tang band nor are there any rivet heads in evidence. A specimen in the Henri Moser collection (cat. no. 425) has a grip very much like that on my saber, it has the same profile and oval cross-section, but it is entirely sheathed in silver. Cat. no. 424 in the same collection has a one-piece jade grip. Moser cat. no. 426 is interesting in that its grip is formed by two horn scales held to the tang band by.... THREE rivets, in line. All three of the Moser speciments are published in: E. Rohrer, "Orientalische Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels: die Waffen aus Turkestan", in JAHRBUCH SES BERNISCHEN HISTORISCHEN MUSEUMS IN BERN, xxvii. Jahrgang, Bern: Buchdruckerei K. J. Wyss Erben AG, 1948, pp. 70-73; plate XC R. Zeller and E. Rohrer, ORIENTALISCHE SAMMLUNG HENRI MOSER-CHARLOTTENFELS: BESCHREIBENDER KATALOG DER WAFFENSAMMLUNG [same publisher, 1955], Chapter 4. My colleague Scott Rodell took photos of several more examples of Bukhara sabers in the Museum of Oriental Cultures in Moscow over 15 yr. ago, I need to retrieve them from my image files (they are 35mm photoprints) to study their hilt design. I will post the info once I locate them.

17th September 2007, 01:23 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, In Arms and Armour, Rolli books, 2005 by E. Jaiwant Paul, page 72, you can see these two. The text to the one with the dark hilt does not say much, other than it is in the National Museum, about the other one he writes that it is from Mysore, 18th century AD, National Museum. I don’t know what Torben Flindt ment about the rivets, but could it be, that the ends of the rivets used in Bukhara were bigger than the ends used elsewhere? Attached Images

17th September 2007, 06:05 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Lots of Rivets What do we have here ariel ? Bukharan ? Attached Images

18th September 2007, 04:13 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, Many weapons did, as we know, travel a lot, so the Mysore one, most likely is a traveller. I agree with you on Jaiwant Paul, and a few others no doubt, but the pictures are getting better and better the more books he publishes. The five rivets are likely to come from Bukhara or somewhere north, but I think the big rivets very likely come from Bukhara. I don’t know about any special watering used in the area, and the Moser collection has been packed away for some years now, so try to ask Rivkin, he may have the answer.

16th September 2007, 12:51 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Perhaps, my question was not formulated well. From the top: while not all Bukharan handles have rivets at all, and some may have 3 rivets, the presence of 5 rivets identifies the handle as Bukharan. Would that be correct?

16th September 2007, 04:29 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The way i read the text in Torben W. Flindt’s article on page 23, it says. “Hilts. When wood or horn were used, the gripshells were held together by three to five rather large iron rivets whose size may be regarded as a Bukharan Characteristic.” To me it seems as if Torben means, not only the number of rivets, but also the size of the iron rivets.

17th September 2007, 12:18 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Correct; I mentioned the size in my original posting. My examples, however, have 5 small rivets. Whereas some Bukharan weapons could have had 3 rivets, do you know of any piece ( Afghani, Indian or Persian) that has 5 rivets (any size) and is not Bukharan? If the "5-rivet" sign is valid, that would simplify ID of weapons in the future.

17th September 2007, 05:08 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looking at Artzi's site, he has examples of 2-rivet, 3-rivet, 5-rivet and even 4-rivet handles on weapons from Bukhara, but only one would conceivably qualify for " large-ish" rivets. http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=434 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=417 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1321 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2215 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2029 One of my pseudoshashkas ( the leftmost one) has Afghani stamps from Mazar-i-Sharif ( admittedly Uzbeki territory), and 3 rather large rivets. The peshkabzes you show, IMHO, are unlikely to be made in Mysore: too far South for a typically Northern weapon. Were they brought assembled from Bukhara? Who knows... And, in general, Paul's book does not impress me as a reliable source of info. My bottom line: small rivets can come from everywhere; large ones are more likely to come from Uzbeki tradition. Three rivets are of no help, but 5 rivets are likely to come from Bukhara. Five large rivets clinch the deal. Agreed? Sounds like a Sherlock Holmes' title " The case of five large rivets"

17th September 2007, 06:31 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm very nice Rick, the oblique cross cut of dark rhino horn is typicaly Bukharan. The 5 small rivets pattern was certanly common in 19th century English made knives. Not sure whether thats relevant or not? Spiral

17th September 2007, 06:51 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nine rivets? Must be a Mother of all Bukharans! Spiral is right: the rhino horn cut does look Bukharan, and this confirms the rivet theory. Masalski observed making wootz ingots in Bukhara in the mid-19th century. Any distinct features of Bukharan wootz?