A worthy kattar for comment

[Montino Bourbon]

Here's a kattar (Katar? khattar? I've seen several spellings) That I picked up three years ago. The koftgari is excellent, and the blade is very fine wootz, with a massive armor-piercing point. I believe that the koftgari on the side shows the imperial family's parasol. The detail is done in several colors of gold, and the small inscription in Devanagari script was translated for me as "Ram protect me".

I have a couple of questions. Would it be feasible to etch the blade to bring out the wootz pattern better? should it even be done?

I welcome all comments!

[RSWORD]

Lovely Katar. In regards to the wootz, it is hard to say without close up shots of the pattern. Often in Katars, though, the wootz would only be visible in the fullering and the edges would be polished bright. Indian wootz tends to be of low contrast to begin with so if the pattern is consistent in the fullering, you may not get any additional "pop" by etching it. However, if the wootz is barely visible at all, you might get a good "pop" by etching it. However, I advise leaving it up to the professionals. Especially on a piece as nice as this.

[Jens Nordlunde]

You have an old and very nice katar – congratulation. The midrib on the blade is the ‘Kundalini flame’ or the ‘Tree of life’ springing from a lotus bud.
I agree with RSword that the question about etching or not is a difficult one. You know what you have, but can’t be sure of what you will get. Normally, if the pattern is very week, I would etch the blade – but the decision is yours.
I am not sure that it is umbrellas shown on the side guards; my guess is that it is flowers, but I am not sure. Have a look at the picture shown, do you think it is umbrellas or do you think it is flowers? I think they are flowers.
It may be easier for you to see if I add the picture - sorry .

[Jens Nordlunde]

I remembered to have see the decoration on the side guards before in one of my books – but in which?
I started with Hendley, and in the second I found. ‘Damascene Work in India’ it is on plate 25. Here is what he writes about it.
‘Hindu thrusting dagger. False damascening in gold from Kotha, a great State, an offshot from Boondi in Rajputana; cost Rs. 50. Here gold of different tints has been employed with good effect.’
Using a magnifying glass I can't see that the two side guards can be closer to each other.
Even the number of flowers seem to be the same.
Sorry, I forgot, the book was printed in 1892.

[Ann Feuerbach]

That is a very nice piece. A word of warning about reetching. Traditional etchants can and do initiate corrosion, which is why it is unacceptable in the museum world. I have, however, developed a museum acceptable method that is noninterventive (conservator term). However, the pattern will not be as visable as traditional etching, but the reflectiveness of the blade is better and the substance used is often used for the conservation of archaeological iron. What ever you decide to do, be careful.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Ann, and thanks for your warning comments - they are well placed, as one have to be/should be very careful when eatching anew - only a pity for us Europeans that you live in the States.

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is off subject but needs to be answered if at all possible.
First
I must take exception to you comment about Ann being in the USA.
I personally think it is great that she is here. However, I do think she needs to be in the South rather way up North

also
Ann
You said that you have a process for wootz steel, do you take on "work" for this process of yours? I have some wootz daggers that needs some help and would like to commission you to do it.
Sorry for the interruption of this thread, but could not let JENS get away with his remark.

I also must give credit to JENS for his great find on the Katar, it sure looks like the same Katar that you found in the book.
Gene

[Montino Bourbon]

Dear Jens; thank you so much for finding that photo of the katar in your book; it does seem like the same thing, except for the inscription at the top. The similarity is amazing! excellent detective work!

Dr Feuerbach- thank you for the caution. I will probably leave this piece as it is, since the wootz pattern is visible in some places, and it's in very good condition otherwise. I would be delighted to know about your etching process, if it's not a trade secret. If it is, I would be willing to trade for some of my secret recipes for curries!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, I thought that you might not stand such a provoaction .

Montino, you are most welcome. To make a find like this makes me almost as much pleasure than it makes you .

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Some may have wondered where the places mentioned are, besides being in India.
Rajputana is roughly coextensive with the modern state of Rajasthan, Boondi/Boondee is now called Bundi and Kotha is called Kota. Try the link below, and you will find Bundi and Kota in the lower right corner of Rajasthan. http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/raja...travel-map.htm it is always interesting to know from where the weapon comes, and in the book Th.H. Hendley tells us, from where the katar in his book – Damascening on Steel or Iron, as Practised in India, comes, from this information, we also know that the katar shown in the book was made before 1892 – the year the book was published.
I will add the picture once more as I have lightened it, to make it easier to compare.

Jens

[Lew]

Here is an old post that may help?

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002318.html

Lew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Lew,

Nice katar display, I really like the old blades .
Are the side guards decorated at all?
Are the side guards watered?
Are any of the katars marked - maybe with dot marking?

Jens

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Lew,

Nice katar display, I really like the old blades .
Are the side guards decorated at all?
Are the side guards watered?
Are any of the katars marked - maybe with dot marking?

Jens

Hi Jens

To answer your questions the katars are all quite plain with no decorations on the guards, the center one has a museum or armoury marking on the side bar and only the center katar seems to have wootz side bars that travel down as far to the grips. I will let you know about the markings later today.
The small one on the right had something like hunters knife written in Hindi on it when it first arrived but it was in poor shaped so I had Al Pendray do a little restoration on it. Jens the center katar has a M 11 stamped on the side bar?

Lew

[Ann Feuerbach]

Montino ...you do know how to tempt a girl...with curry recipies...living in London got me hooked...Dansak... The renewing solution is not a trade secret but I do not want to give it out until I publish it. Right now I have two papers with the Historical Metallurgy Society (who funded the research). One paper is on the history of etching, the second is on the new method. I hope to publish the second article in a Conservation journal in the near future, the other article in Journal of HMS if they want it. I think they meet in March so I hope to hear from them soonish. It is based on a Tannic acid solution, which does not etch but reacts differently to iron-carbon phases.
Gene, I am getting supplies together so I will be in touch shortly. I should be able to start working on your objects in May.
Ann

[Lew]

Hi Anne

I have experimented with tannic acids and have found that they work great for bluing the blades but they really don't make the wootz pattern pop out that much. I usually use a 3 parts water 1 part ferric chloride. This mixture does a good job and the more diluted solution does not corrode the blade. You can use baking soda to help neutralize the etchant after it is applied. I find there are differences in the way certain types of wootz etch. The Indian wootz has a more gray low contrast look while the persian wootz seems more refined and has a more blue/black look to it. I spoke with Mr. Pendray about this and one opinion is that the persians bought the igots from India and some how refined them through forging and heat treatment.

Regards,

Lew

[B.I]

hi,
i think jens' contribution has been a little overlooked. to find a direct location for indian decoration is almost impossible, as most that lend towards indian arms will agree.
hendley spent many years of his life in india, whilst assuming relatively high, important roles in indian society, studying indian decoration. his interest was not so much in antique style, but more in the 'modern' day practice of an old legacy. in his volumous works, he left a fingerprint of decorative style which we can associate with almost definate certainty. in his studies, he worked alongside the decorators of the age and recorded them well.
this decoration, as jens has found, seems to stem from the khota region. there are not many pieces in private collections, nor in internationally acclaimed museums that can claim such certainty. well spotted and stated!! this style of decoration ought to be noted as we has now seen a definate example, wheres as before we had but a good illustraion. there may be in existence variations of this style which we can assume hail from the same region, but i would be surprised if anyone can now doubt the origin of this piece.

[Ann Feuerbach]

Hi Lew,
Yes the tannic acid solution does not make the pattern pop out as much, but from a conservation (museum) point of view, ferric chloride is not an acceptable method. Even with neutralization. With this process, we do not use water. I have also found a method to give a great golden sheen. I am still working on that one, but it is beautiful. 99% of curators would not let a conservator use ferric or nitric acid.
On another note, I have done extensive research on the different between wootz and pulad. It seems that the difference in the pattern is initally due to the fact that the indians take out the ingot while liquid and the solidification and cooling is very fast, which produces small dendrites. In the persian pulad process, they ingots solidify and cool slowly, thus producing large dendrites. From Verhoeven et al reserach, the cementite aligns along the impurities from the dendrite formation, thus big dendrites, coarser pattern vs faster cooling, smaller dendrites, finer pattern. However, final forging and trace and minor elements also plays a part.
Ann

[Ann Feuerbach]

Oh, I forgot, also the Persians added Mn to the mixture, which probably accounts for the darker phase contrast.

[Montino Bourbon]

Just a thought; what would happen if the ingot was allowed to cool in a strong magnetic field? Would the dendrites align with the field?

Something for the experimenters to try!

[Ann Feuerbach]

Interesting question. However I do not think so, if you look at castings, the dendrites grow from the outside inward. You get a chill layer (sorry I forget the correct term, need second cup of coffee)

[Gt Obach]

hi all
this is an interesting post..
- alloy has lots to do with the coloring but so does the etch...
- even the quenched steel will show up darker..

for awhile the blades i've made... sometimes have a grey hue all the way to a bluish color.. but yet I alter my formula very little.... except for the occasional frankenwootz ..

personally, i wouldn't alter museum pieces with nital... but for my steel, it brings out an accurate picture ... example:
http://dark.unitz.ca/~gthomas/myweb/p1.JPG

the rest of the post is on primal bout half way down the post
http://p222.ezboard.com/fprimalfires...icID=156.topic


recently.... Jeff Pringle posted a wootz knife he made..... and used an iron sulphate etch..... he said he had to add sulphuric acid to it and it worked well... but it was different than my fav (nital)
here... take a peek
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=27383

hope that helps a little
Greg

[Ann Feuerbach]

Yes, nital and ferric chloride will give a different etch. Other factors which need to be considered are: if you want to darken the globular cementite or the matrix, which basically can be ferrite or pearlite. Sort of a negative or positive effect, dpending which one you want to darken. I have also heard the Worstershire sauce works well. And yes, any additional trace elements can also effect the pattern.
So I have been told.. when they re etch Japanese blades, they first do an elemental map of the blade to see what elements are where (phosphorus, etc). Then they choose the etchant to bring out the best pattern.

[Gt Obach]

Worstershire sauce... .. that is something I haven't tried.. but I will surely give it a go
- i've tried Alum with abit of acid... but I could never get it to work right... it does make your hands a nice purple

I aggree with all my heart that the elemental make up does funny things to the etch... even two blades from the same ingot can take on subtle hue differences pending how they were forged and quenched

in most of my blades... the etched matrix is tempered martensite.... even the swords i've made were in this state too.. but this summer i'll have to experiment with pearlite
-
- in plain damascus... even vinnegar will work well... but I find it etches better if it used a couple times.... therefore its' more of acetic acid and an iron salt...
--- think those 2 components are the key.... the acid and the iron salt

thank you
Greg

[francantolin]

Shazaam !

A really old post comes back !

( I was looking for informations about etching blades on kattar daggers and found this post ... )
I have an old all rusty kattar with perhaps wootz/damas blade and with little gold koftgari remains on the handle.


I wonder if an vinegar-acetic acid bath will destroy the koftgari...
Any advice for clean it in the best way ?

Thank you

[Jens Nordlunde]

Funny to see such an old thread again.


francantolin, I would clean the blade and etch it, to see if it shown any pattern, and then clean the side guards and the cross bar carefully, not to remove the remaining gold.


Montino, I hope you take good care of your nice katar, and I was surprised to see, that no one of us told you from where it is.
Hendley in his book Damascene Work in India, plate 25 writes that it is 'false damascening in gold from Kotah.
To me it looks like a Deccani kater decorated in the north.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think it will be easier for you to see the difference of the katars if I show all four katars on plate 25. The three other katars shown are said to be from Delhi.

[francantolin]

Hello and Thank you Jens !

Doc

[NavdeepBal]

Your katar seems to have written on it “सीरा मेरा हा?” Cant really tell what the last letter is but the first word says seeraa, which doesnt make sense so i thought it might be Sita, who is Ram’s wife. Sita is also worshipped alongside Ram so that is very likely. The second word says Mera meaning mine or my. I could only figure out the first letter, being Haa. If mera is the second word, maybe its suppose to say my protector or lord, but the first letter was a H and no word related to protection begins with a h as far as i know. Maybe when saying Haath meaning hand, when using the phrase, “keeps his/her hand over my head” which is also common. But inscriptions in koftgari are almost always hard to read. But this might just say “Sita is my protector” or “Sita is my Mother”.