What is this?

CourseEight · 26th August 2007, 07:29 PM

I bought this on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=003

First impulse is some sort of rehilted spear point, but I have no idea from where or when.

I'd appreciate any help you could offer!

--Radleigh

Runjeet Singh · 26th August 2007, 07:41 PM

Radleigh,

Looks like a re-hilted one of these.....

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119247&rd=1

Barsha / Lance from South India, possibly Mysore or surrounding areas. Circa 1800.

CourseEight · 26th August 2007, 08:24 PM

Wow! Quite a bit more exciting than I thought, thanks so much!

--Radleigh

tom hyle · 1st September 2007, 03:02 AM

Pretty sure this is Mediterranean. Less sure it was originally a dagger. The guard may be upside down. The nicely tapered grove may be our localixing factor?.....guesses and babbles. Doesn't look very Hindoo to me.

tom hyle · 1st September 2007, 05:35 PM

The Hindoo spear we are shown appears to be (as have been those I've seen) a socketed, not a tanged blade.
This dagger seems to have a heavy tang?
The swedged (bevelled) decorations at the blade base also seem European to me.
This closely resembles a type of mediterranean dagger commonly used for pig hunting in Spain.
The upside down looking guard is a fairly common feature on DE Mediterranean daggers. A narrowed and even thickened ricassoe is common to such daggers, though the full pedestalization seen here is not common, and reminds me of Rennaissance stilletoes.
The guard and lower ferule appear to be plated (?tinned?) iron, while the upper ferule (?or is it a set-off area of wood?) and pommel appear to be brass, etc.
Is the handle round in section, or close to it?

tom hyle · 1st September 2007, 05:41 PM

Without specific reason to view it as such, I do not think this is Hindian or a spear blade.

Battara · 1st September 2007, 08:46 PM

For me the back notches are indications of European manufacture. Hindo blades like this are either more slender, triangular in cross section, or in the form used in katars. I am thus in the European camp.

katana · 1st September 2007, 09:21 PM

I noticed on the listing pictures the pommel has two holes 180 degrees apart. It suggests to me that a pronged tool tool was used to tighten it.....further suggesting that the tang is threaded and why, perhaps the guard is the wrong way round (if it is indeed incorrect)...wrongly re-assembled? The hilt components have gaps and seem 'slack' perhaps a few are missing

Interesting dagger never the less

Runjeet Singh · 1st September 2007, 11:21 PM

ummm seems I am wrong. I compared the down turned quillions straight away to the South Indian Spear (of which I have seen a few)....interesing similarity between Indian and European eitherway,
Cheers,
Runjeet

CourseEight · 1st September 2007, 11:54 PM

Wow, suddenly lots of posts here! As it happens I received the dagger today, and yes has a rather heavy square tang, tapering to a short rount threaded end. Also the hilt is indeed plated. A pity, but nothing Indian here! Still, I'm quite happy with the blade, and what I paid for it. Any further pictures I should take that would help in the identification? Any thoughts on the age? I don't know when threaded tangs were introduced...

Thanks so much for everyone's input!

--Radleigh

Henk · 2nd September 2007, 08:52 AM

Isn't it a so called plug bayonet? Those bayonets where attached to the old muskets with the hilt in the barrel. This knife has such an appearance.

CourseEight · 2nd September 2007, 04:46 PM

I thought about its being a plug bayonet, but all the ones I've seen had a bulge in the handle, then a tapering, then the hilt and dagger. The similarity in the look has to do with the way the blade tapers, but the position of the hilt is wrong. See the picture here. I'm thinking both the plug bayonet and my dagger were probably based on the blade design of some polearm, and that's why they look similar?

tom hyle · 6th September 2007, 05:23 AM

Yeah, a plug bayo would need a tapered butt to wedge into the gun barrel.
The tang nut is what is sometimes known as an ordinance screw; they are found (not exclusively) on military equipment, prominantly bayonet handles, for instance. It is turned with a special "ordinace driver" (not making up this probably obsolete terminology! ).
It leans me toward later 19th/ earlier 20th (in the private message I was picturing a threaded pommel with an emergent tang; that's the factor I think is perhaps more recent...) the blade looks older than that though, and perhaps the grip and upper ferule and pommel are replacements????

CourseEight · 6th September 2007, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The tang nut is what is sometimes known as an ordinance screw; they are found (not exclusively) on military equipment, prominantly bayonet handles, for instance. It is turned with a special "ordinace driver" (not making up this probably obsolete terminology! ).
It leans me toward later 19th/ earlier 20th (in the private message I was picturing a threaded pommel with an emergent tang; that's the factor I think is perhaps more recent...) the blade looks older than that though, and perhaps the grip and upper ferule and pommel are replacements????

Thanks for the info. I think it certainly is a strong possibility that the blade predates portions of the handle, since the patina on the blade itself seems quite nice and genuine, as far as I am able to judge such things. Thanks a lot!

--Radleigh

26th August 2007, 07:29 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	What is this? I bought this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=003 First impulse is some sort of rehilted spear point, but I have no idea from where or when. I'd appreciate any help you could offer! --Radleigh Attached Images

1st September 2007, 09:21 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I noticed on the listing pictures the pommel has two holes 180 degrees apart. It suggests to me that a pronged tool tool was used to tighten it.....further suggesting that the tang is threaded and why, perhaps the guard is the wrong way round (if it is indeed incorrect)...wrongly re-assembled? The hilt components have gaps and seem 'slack' perhaps a few are missing Interesting dagger never the less Attached Images

26th August 2007, 07:41 PM	#2
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Radleigh, Looks like a re-hilted one of these..... http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119247&rd=1 Barsha / Lance from South India, possibly Mysore or surrounding areas. Circa 1800.

26th August 2007, 08:24 PM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Wow! Quite a bit more exciting than I thought, thanks so much! --Radleigh

1st September 2007, 03:02 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Pretty sure this is Mediterranean. Less sure it was originally a dagger. The guard may be upside down. The nicely tapered grove may be our localixing factor?.....guesses and babbles. Doesn't look very Hindoo to me.

1st September 2007, 05:35 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The Hindoo spear we are shown appears to be (as have been those I've seen) a socketed, not a tanged blade. This dagger seems to have a heavy tang? The swedged (bevelled) decorations at the blade base also seem European to me. This closely resembles a type of mediterranean dagger commonly used for pig hunting in Spain. The upside down looking guard is a fairly common feature on DE Mediterranean daggers. A narrowed and even thickened ricassoe is common to such daggers, though the full pedestalization seen here is not common, and reminds me of Rennaissance stilletoes. The guard and lower ferule appear to be plated (?tinned?) iron, while the upper ferule (?or is it a set-off area of wood?) and pommel appear to be brass, etc. Is the handle round in section, or close to it?

1st September 2007, 05:41 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Without specific reason to view it as such, I do not think this is Hindian or a spear blade.

1st September 2007, 08:46 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	For me the back notches are indications of European manufacture. Hindo blades like this are either more slender, triangular in cross section, or in the form used in katars. I am thus in the European camp.

1st September 2007, 11:21 PM	#9
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	ummm seems I am wrong. I compared the down turned quillions straight away to the South Indian Spear (of which I have seen a few)....interesing similarity between Indian and European eitherway, Cheers, Runjeet

1st September 2007, 11:54 PM	#10
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Wow, suddenly lots of posts here! As it happens I received the dagger today, and yes has a rather heavy square tang, tapering to a short rount threaded end. Also the hilt is indeed plated. A pity, but nothing Indian here! Still, I'm quite happy with the blade, and what I paid for it. Any further pictures I should take that would help in the identification? Any thoughts on the age? I don't know when threaded tangs were introduced... Thanks so much for everyone's input! --Radleigh

2nd September 2007, 08:52 AM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Isn't it a so called plug bayonet? Those bayonets where attached to the old muskets with the hilt in the barrel. This knife has such an appearance.

2nd September 2007, 04:46 PM	#12
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	I thought about its being a plug bayonet, but all the ones I've seen had a bulge in the handle, then a tapering, then the hilt and dagger. The similarity in the look has to do with the way the blade tapers, but the position of the hilt is wrong. See the picture here. I'm thinking both the plug bayonet and my dagger were probably based on the blade design of some polearm, and that's why they look similar?

6th September 2007, 05:23 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, a plug bayo would need a tapered butt to wedge into the gun barrel. The tang nut is what is sometimes known as an ordinance screw; they are found (not exclusively) on military equipment, prominantly bayonet handles, for instance. It is turned with a special "ordinace driver" (not making up this probably obsolete terminology! ). It leans me toward later 19th/ earlier 20th (in the private message I was picturing a threaded pommel with an emergent tang; that's the factor I think is perhaps more recent...) the blade looks older than that though, and perhaps the grip and upper ferule and pommel are replacements????