British Wootz Sword

ariel · 3rd August 2007, 04:35 AM

Well, boys, how do you like this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019
Private purchase from India?

TVV · 3rd August 2007, 04:52 AM

Are we 100% sure this is wootz? Sometimes pattern welded steel may look like wootz, especially if there are plenty of layers. Still a nice and peculiar blade though.

rand · 3rd August 2007, 09:52 AM

I agree with TVV, don't see anything that says wootz. Layers of steels in a sword was typical so the blade could better absorb shock without beaking. Sometimes over zealous people polish and etch these blades and then say they have a damascus blade. Even in Islamic swords not all blades are meant to be ecthed to show a pattern, they can be made for function alone.

Certainly could not tell from the photo's provided.....

rand

Lew · 3rd August 2007, 03:59 PM

I don't think this is wootz it just does not look right. Could be some form of shear steel or another type of laminate. I also see a couple of spots near the edge that may be showing signs of welding flaws or delamination. From what I have read that English steel was considered better quality steel even by the Indians so why would the gentry want to have a sword made with native steel? Where are our wootz experts they should chime in on this one.

Lew

Jeff Pringle · 5th August 2007, 05:56 PM

British blade steels were made by the blister/shear process and after 1740 increasingly via melting the steel in crucibles. When forged in a certain way, many steels made in a crucible can develop patterns akin to wootz if the right trace elements are present, but the carbon content would be much lower than in true wootz. In modern steel making it is considered a flaw and is called ‘alloy banding,’ however the mechanism is the same one that creates the beautiful patterns in wootz. The lighter lines in the pattern would be soft ferrite [or perhaps low-alloy pearlite?] rather than the super-hard cementite responsible for wootz’ legendary edge.
Due to seeing in this blade some 90 degree line intersections and a few isolated bold lines like in the right side of the second photo above, I’d guess it must be alloy-banded crucible steel rather than shear steel, but I’ve only seen a few examples of shear steel so I don’t know all the potential patterns it can exhibit.

Lew · 5th August 2007, 06:23 PM

[QUOTE=Jeff I’d guess it must be alloy-banded crucible steel rather than shear steel, but I’ve only seen a few examples of shear steel so I don’t know all the potential patterns it can exhibit.

[/QUOTE]

Jeff

Are you saying that you think it is wootz?

Lew

Jeff Pringle · 5th August 2007, 07:22 PM

No, it looks to me like the accidental alloy banding of a crucible steel with 0.6 - 0.7 % Carbon, rather than the purposeful patterning of wootz with more than one percent carbon, with of course the standard 'you can't really tell from a couple of internet photos' caveat - kudos to this ebayer for putting some better than average photos up though.
Nice blade either way!

rand · 5th August 2007, 08:57 PM

This sword has no scabbard and a blade that most likely should not have originally be etched. For me I would have wanted to look very closely at the peen marks on tang where it has been peened over the pommel. A close inspection of wear and soil accumulation on the wire grip would be wanted too. Neither of these are shown clearly in a listing photo. A buyer could have asked for these and hopefully gotten them. I don't see any indication of wootz from the photo's shown. All go's back to that the Buyer could have asked for more pics to base their decisions on.

Its just that I see a lot of swords polished, etched and then called damascus steel to increase selling value and not accurate to their original state. Its usually newer collectors that buy these and find out later what they have. Am I too jaded? Or telling it like it is?

rand

ariel · 10th August 2007, 04:33 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019

And here is another one, very similar.This time, it is French(?)

rand · 10th August 2007, 07:13 PM

This is yet another example of a sword somewhat polished and etched that was never meant to be. Someone is just trying to create a sense of greater value calling it damascus steel.

Then later the buyer will come to a show, eagerly show you his pride and joy sword and you have to tell him the truth.

To me these are red flags, an indication of embellishment not original to item.

Will be interesting to see what happens if he sells a sword to the Vice Presidents personal physician.

rand

Lew · 10th August 2007, 11:30 PM

I actually like this sword and the price is fair.

Lew

spiral · 11th August 2007, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I actually like this sword and the price is fair.

Lew

You could have bid then perhaps? if you so wished? But I must agree a reasonsable price was reached by bidders. Perhaps his other swords will do well though.

To my eye the bluing looks rather Retouched as well though unfortuantly, which is rather a value destroyer in my opinion..

Spiral

3rd August 2007, 04:35 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	British Wootz Sword Well, boys, how do you like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019 Private purchase from India?

3rd August 2007, 09:52 AM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Wootz? I agree with TVV, don't see anything that says wootz. Layers of steels in a sword was typical so the blade could better absorb shock without beaking. Sometimes over zealous people polish and etch these blades and then say they have a damascus blade. Even in Islamic swords not all blades are meant to be ecthed to show a pattern, they can be made for function alone. Certainly could not tell from the photo's provided..... rand

3rd August 2007, 03:59 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I don't think this is wootz it just does not look right. Could be some form of shear steel or another type of laminate. I also see a couple of spots near the edge that may be showing signs of welding flaws or delamination. From what I have read that English steel was considered better quality steel even by the Indians so why would the gentry want to have a sword made with native steel? Where are our wootz experts they should chime in on this one. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 3rd August 2007 at 04:17 PM.

5th August 2007, 08:57 PM	#8
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Something to ponder This sword has no scabbard and a blade that most likely should not have originally be etched. For me I would have wanted to look very closely at the peen marks on tang where it has been peened over the pommel. A close inspection of wear and soil accumulation on the wire grip would be wanted too. Neither of these are shown clearly in a listing photo. A buyer could have asked for these and hopefully gotten them. I don't see any indication of wootz from the photo's shown. All go's back to that the Buyer could have asked for more pics to base their decisions on. Its just that I see a lot of swords polished, etched and then called damascus steel to increase selling value and not accurate to their original state. Its usually newer collectors that buy these and find out later what they have. Am I too jaded? Or telling it like it is? rand

10th August 2007, 07:13 PM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Falsely Embellished Sword This is yet another example of a sword somewhat polished and etched that was never meant to be. Someone is just trying to create a sense of greater value calling it damascus steel. Then later the buyer will come to a show, eagerly show you his pride and joy sword and you have to tell him the truth. To me these are red flags, an indication of embellishment not original to item. Will be interesting to see what happens if he sells a sword to the Vice Presidents personal physician. rand

3rd August 2007, 04:52 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Are we 100% sure this is wootz? Sometimes pattern welded steel may look like wootz, especially if there are plenty of layers. Still a nice and peculiar blade though.

5th August 2007, 05:56 PM	#5
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	British blade steels were made by the blister/shear process and after 1740 increasingly via melting the steel in crucibles. When forged in a certain way, many steels made in a crucible can develop patterns akin to wootz if the right trace elements are present, but the carbon content would be much lower than in true wootz. In modern steel making it is considered a flaw and is called ‘alloy banding,’ however the mechanism is the same one that creates the beautiful patterns in wootz. The lighter lines in the pattern would be soft ferrite [or perhaps low-alloy pearlite?] rather than the super-hard cementite responsible for wootz’ legendary edge. Due to seeing in this blade some 90 degree line intersections and a few isolated bold lines like in the right side of the second photo above, I’d guess it must be alloy-banded crucible steel rather than shear steel, but I’ve only seen a few examples of shear steel so I don’t know all the potential patterns it can exhibit.

5th August 2007, 06:23 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Jeff I’d guess it must be alloy-banded crucible steel rather than shear steel, but I’ve only seen a few examples of shear steel so I don’t know all the potential patterns it can exhibit. [/QUOTE] Jeff Are you saying that you think it is wootz? Lew

5th August 2007, 07:22 PM	#7
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	No, it looks to me like the accidental alloy banding of a crucible steel with 0.6 - 0.7 % Carbon, rather than the purposeful patterning of wootz with more than one percent carbon, with of course the standard 'you can't really tell from a couple of internet photos' caveat - kudos to this ebayer for putting some better than average photos up though. Nice blade either way!

10th August 2007, 04:33 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019 And here is another one, very similar.This time, it is French(?)

10th August 2007, 11:30 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I actually like this sword and the price is fair. Lew