Dayak parang - Page 2

David · 19th July 2007, 05:58 PM

I think Arjan is talking more about influence on the blade and sheath style than on the hilts. I do see similarities between his and Asomotif's examples.
Thank you all for this continuing research. What certainly seems to have been established is that the motif styles of my hilt are not some carvers freeminded improv but seem to have some basis in traditional indigenous designs.

Mytribalworld · 20th July 2007, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I think Arjan is talking more about influence on the blade and sheath style than on the hilts. I do see similarities between his and Asomotif's examples.
Thank you all for this continuing research. What certainly seems to have been established is that the motif styles of my hilt are not some carvers freeminded improv but seem to have some basis in traditional indigenous designs.

Hi David,

Especially the sheath,I think Kutei blades had more their influence from the Kajan.The boatprow upbending scabbard-end however seems to have his influence in Kutei but later the more common shape of the Kajan scabbard became in use.

The mirrored S on the hilt is also found as chest tattoo by men of the Bukit tribe , the Bukit tribe live indeed around the area of Banjarmassin.
So I think its very good possible that this is a Bukit mandau.

Thanks for showing it David,it helped me further with the study!

Mytribalworld · 20th July 2007, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for addition info about Kutai mandau, but i don't think Arjan has said he thought mine was from there.
I wish there were some different angles on the photos of your example Arjan, but i can now see on the top the same style of opened mouth creature that is on mine so now that is 2 motifs in common between these hilts. There definitely seem to be from the same area to me. I wonder if the museum you found it in has any more information of were it was collected?

Here some more pics.

David · 20th July 2007, 07:23 PM

Thanks again Arjan. I will consider this piece as probably from the Bukit tribe until more info comes my way?

One more stylistic motif in common with these two hilts would be that "joint" in the carving that looks somewhat like a nut & bolt viewed from the top. I have never seen this on mandau hilts before either. All very interesting stuff for me. Now, if we can only figure out what these different motifs actually represent.

Mytribalworld · 22nd July 2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks again Arjan. I will consider this piece as probably from the Bukit tribe until more info comes my way?

One more stylistic motif in common with these two hilts would be that "joint" in the carving that looks somewhat like a nut & bolt viewed from the top. I have never seen this on mandau hilts before either. All very interesting stuff for me. Now, if we can only figure out what these different motifs actually represent.

I think indeed we can cassify this as " possible Bukit mandau"....
is it possible to show the "neck"?

David · 23rd July 2007, 02:45 AM

I owe you all better pics and promise i will get to it soon. I am a new home owner

and between the move and home repairs (spent 10 hrs. re-tiling the kitchen floor yesterday

) i just haven't had time to re-photograph this piece. Hopefully this week i can find the time.
By "neck" do you mean the base of the blade where it enters the hilt or the "neck" of the hilt itself?

Mytribalworld · 23rd July 2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I owe you all better pics and promise i will get to it soon. I am a new home owner

and between the move and home repairs (spent 10 hrs. re-tiling the kitchen floor yesterday

) i just haven't had time to re-photograph this piece. Hopefully this week i can find the time.
By "neck" do you mean the base of the blade where it enters the hilt or the "neck" of the hilt itself?

The back of the hilt, mostly there's a motif on it.But don't hurry,the kitchen is an important piece of the house!

Dajak · 29th July 2007, 10:05 PM

Hi I don t think it is an mandau from the buket .

I have here an bamboo design from the Bahau people from the above Mahakam erea this was collected between 1898 and 1899 bij W. O. J . Nieuwenhuis.

Thes can be read in the magazine Nederlandsch-Indie oud en nieuw
1925 10 e jaargang afl 3 juli .

So I think it is from the Mahakam erea .

Ben

David · 30th July 2007, 05:10 AM

Ben, i see the mirrorred "S" on your example, but it doesn't explaain to me why you don't think my mandau is Buket. It merely shows that another region also used the same motif. I see more motifs in common with Arjan's examples. I am not fully convinced of either origin, but as the examples fall up to now i would still be more inclined towards the Buket origins. I would love to hear why you think this is not possible.

Dajak · 30th July 2007, 01:54 PM

At the moment they found these pieces in that area did not have much contact with the other people

the pic from buket area don t look that it is from 1898

In hose and macdonald pagantribes off borneo we can read that a number off tribes have adopted the tatu off the Kayan Batang Kayan from the upper Makaham

I cannot find markings that only used by the buket people .

Maybe the tribe have an other name Schwaner does write also about the boekit people that they are moslim people and wear clothes on the Boegenese Art can be read in Schwaner 1843- 1847

bandjarmassin was famous for the diamonds that was search by the malay s
and the chinese people

That is why I think not Boekit

Ben

David · 30th July 2007, 02:35 PM

Ben, do you also suspect that the mandau from the museum that Arjan posted is Makaham and not Bukit?

Dajak · 30th July 2007, 03:57 PM

Hi David yes the problem with some off these is that some museums like I bring in an mandau and say I did take this from Borneo and the place was kuching they write that down without research . ( we also find sumatra weapons listed as Borneo weapons if you look in the leiden museum where the mandau is from )

So I don t now who bring in that mandau .

Nieuwenhuis did search an area and get a few example s not one .

So I never based area on what is in an museum . (Only when there is more proof )
Date that they bring it in can be used .

This is my opinion

There are in some books also mistakes The book off Zonneveld has one With the Jimpuls there is one pictured as Jimpul that is not classificated as an Jimpul but al the people that have the book think it s an Jimpul very dangerous.

He did put it with the Jimpuls because he had no classification wrong in my opinion .
Just leave it without name .

Ben

29th July 2007, 10:05 PM	#38
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi I don t think it is an mandau from the buket . I have here an bamboo design from the Bahau people from the above Mahakam erea this was collected between 1898 and 1899 bij W. O. J . Nieuwenhuis. Thes can be read in the magazine Nederlandsch-Indie oud en nieuw 1925 10 e jaargang afl 3 juli . So I think it is from the Mahakam erea . Ben Attached Images

19th July 2007, 05:58 PM	#31
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I think Arjan is talking more about influence on the blade and sheath style than on the hilts. I do see similarities between his and Asomotif's examples. Thank you all for this continuing research. What certainly seems to have been established is that the motif styles of my hilt are not some carvers freeminded improv but seem to have some basis in traditional indigenous designs.

20th July 2007, 07:23 PM	#34
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Thanks again Arjan. I will consider this piece as probably from the Bukit tribe until more info comes my way? One more stylistic motif in common with these two hilts would be that "joint" in the carving that looks somewhat like a nut & bolt viewed from the top. I have never seen this on mandau hilts before either. All very interesting stuff for me. Now, if we can only figure out what these different motifs actually represent.

23rd July 2007, 02:45 AM	#36
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I owe you all better pics and promise i will get to it soon. I am a new home owner and between the move and home repairs (spent 10 hrs. re-tiling the kitchen floor yesterday ) i just haven't had time to re-photograph this piece. Hopefully this week i can find the time. By "neck" do you mean the base of the blade where it enters the hilt or the "neck" of the hilt itself?

30th July 2007, 05:10 AM	#39
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Ben, i see the mirrorred "S" on your example, but it doesn't explaain to me why you don't think my mandau is Buket. It merely shows that another region also used the same motif. I see more motifs in common with Arjan's examples. I am not fully convinced of either origin, but as the examples fall up to now i would still be more inclined towards the Buket origins. I would love to hear why you think this is not possible.

30th July 2007, 01:54 PM	#40
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	At the moment they found these pieces in that area did not have much contact with the other people the pic from buket area don t look that it is from 1898 In hose and macdonald pagantribes off borneo we can read that a number off tribes have adopted the tatu off the Kayan Batang Kayan from the upper Makaham I cannot find markings that only used by the buket people . Maybe the tribe have an other name Schwaner does write also about the boekit people that they are moslim people and wear clothes on the Boegenese Art can be read in Schwaner 1843- 1847 bandjarmassin was famous for the diamonds that was search by the malay s and the chinese people That is why I think not Boekit Ben

30th July 2007, 02:35 PM	#41
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Ben, do you also suspect that the mandau from the museum that Arjan posted is Makaham and not Bukit?

30th July 2007, 03:57 PM	#42
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi David yes the problem with some off these is that some museums like I bring in an mandau and say I did take this from Borneo and the place was kuching they write that down without research . ( we also find sumatra weapons listed as Borneo weapons if you look in the leiden museum where the mandau is from ) So I don t now who bring in that mandau . Nieuwenhuis did search an area and get a few example s not one . So I never based area on what is in an museum . (Only when there is more proof ) Date that they bring it in can be used . This is my opinion There are in some books also mistakes The book off Zonneveld has one With the Jimpuls there is one pictured as Jimpul that is not classificated as an Jimpul but al the people that have the book think it s an Jimpul very dangerous. He did put it with the Jimpuls because he had no classification wrong in my opinion . Just leave it without name . Ben