Karabela... but is it genuine Polish?

ariel · 24th July 2007, 04:58 AM

Just ended
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019
The blade carries Indian armoury markings ( Ulwar?) but nothing of Polish connection and the handle, including the leather, is gloriously intact.
Any explanations?

kronckew · 24th July 2007, 07:28 AM

that 'karabela' looks almost exactly like the Viktor Berbekucz made 16c hungarian sabre i have, it was custom forged by him a couple years ago out of CV steel and has a modern molded grip, and does not have a channeled and marked spine, just his VB sheild logo near the languet.

his catalogue photo:

his website appears to be down, but normally resides at http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/

i believe he has based his designs on one of the exhibits at a hungarian nat'l. museum. the blade on the ebay one looks more tulwarish, the grip looks much like my VB one except mine is not grooved under the languet, and is grooved from the languet's lower end to the pommel. the ebay one has an unsharpened tulwarry ricasso, less well defined yelman; mine is sharp to the guard. looks like an indian fitted a hungarian grip and guard to a tulwar blade (or visa versa) to the 'polish' ebay sword. the grip doesn't look very karabela-like to my untrained eyes....but what do i know, maybe a polish lordlet imported an austo-hungarian swordsmith of a distinguished indian ancestry who was a ex-armory blade marker who got nostalgic.

wolviex · 24th July 2007, 09:12 AM

Of course it isn't karabela, and the name used for it was more like marketing concept to attract people. The proper name for this sword is Hungarian-Polish type of course, while many of these were used in both countries. Sabres like that one, used in Poland (up to the half of the 17th century, then it started to disappear, thought in Hungary last a little longer with some later variations) were usually mounted with blades from Genoa or made as Genoa blades, with characteristic 'sickles" stamps, thought of course you can find many other blades from Germany or made in Poland (probably) too.

This one (I'm sorry I'll be sincere) looks very fake to me. Leather it too new, the hilt is too heavy and clumsy. Even the steel, as far as I can conclude from the pictures, doesn't look ancient at all. Fake handle would be an answer for an eastern blade, attached to it just because it does look nice

- my opinion.

I wouldn't like to discourage every Polish-arms lover but please beware, because there are many fakes of Hungarian-Polish sabres on auctions lately. Through many years there was a lack of these sabres and immediately some of the auction houses started to sell those sabres in many pieces - while no new historical source appeared! So it is suspected already!

I have to admit that I had in my hands quite a good copy recently too. With such grip, but very long and heavy blade, straight one, so it was a pallash. It was very good, and I thought about it few days with other people to find all evidences for it to be a fake. The blade was probably old, refitted to newer, Hungarian-Polish type handle, very heavy and bigger then usual, also with a hilt made like that one on ebay (thought a little better).

So maybe some pictures of real sabres for you

:

HUSAR · 24th July 2007, 02:02 PM

I totally agree with Michal, the blade is from tulwar and the handle is very recent work, poorly done. There are some... polish hungarian swords on the market here in Poland and it seems that part of those went for a trip to USA

RSWORD · 24th July 2007, 02:05 PM

I remember this sword at the Baltimore show earlier this year and had a chance to handle it. The blade is Indian and is an old blade. By old, I mean 18th or 19th century. You can see the armoury markings on the spine. Notice also the typical Indian ricasso at the forte. You have the interesting "channeled" spine which is not common but is found on some Indian, Chinese and E European blades. The blade has genuine wear throughout. The hilt, however, is another matter. As you can see from one of the pictures, the vertical guard still has a lot of tooling marks. They look a bit clumsy to me and somewhat crude. The leather is fairly nicely done but does not show a lot of genuine age. So, a composite piece of antique blade with newer handle of unknown age but almost certainly 20th century.

ariel · 24th July 2007, 04:01 PM

In my original posting I purposefully tried to sound neutral.
I am sure it is a hybrid sword, with old Indian blade and new "Polish-Hungarian"- type handle and crossguard.

Jamaz · 26th July 2007, 04:24 PM

It's fake in my opinion. Agree with Wolview. The leather too new, crossguard as well, no rivets, etc. Even shape of this sabre does not convince me.

rand · 28th July 2007, 05:02 PM

Great post Wolviex,

Was great to see a close up on your Polish sword. Some polish items are so rare even the Metropolitan Museum of Art does not have one, a winged hussar armor for example.

Copies are so rampant now, very few dealers are ever prosectited for fraud, although there are a few in jail. Never sell a fake to the Vice Presidents physician.....

I feel sorry for the people that spend there hard earned monay and then find out they have lost everything, especially when they but from a dealer. A proffessional is held to a much higher standard of knowledge.

Don't know of one auction house that is totally reputable, this includes, Sotheby's, Christies, Czerneys, Herman Historica and Butterfields. I can tell you stories about all these auction houses. There are also some very good dealers that really help new collectors and offer profound detailed information. Then there are some dealers that prey on novices......

Everyone makes mistakes, I operate on the assumption that if I don't make any mistakes I am not buying enough pieces.... If its too good of a deal, soemthing may be wrong.

One good Polish sword would look really nice on the wall next to my desk...

rand

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2007, 05:47 PM

I completely agree with Rand and his extremely well worded assessment, in acquiring weapons one will make mistakes, and will gain knowledge in sometimes painful degree. While this knowledge is of course useful, it is better to learn as much as possible 'before' buying weapons and the degree of injury will be less. Hopefully the information shared on the forum here has helped others as I know it has helped me.
The next key is to find a dealer you trust and try to focus on dealing with them whenever possible. Obviously deals 'too good to be true' have increased in volume with the advent of computers and ebay et al. The sheepish ploy of many the coy seller who 'inherited this' , found it in an estate sale but doesn't know what it is etc etc.has all been tiresomely played out, and it is difficult to determine with unknowns when this might surprisingly be the case.
In those cases, research before bidding, contact dealers or professionals you trust.
Everybody makes mistakes, and the big boy auction houses are not immune. however with the knowledge base that seems certain with thier staff it would seem surprising that inaccuracy would occur. Naturally, money prevails and is known to turn heads away from such matters. In these busy times it has become to easy to blame volume, shortage of personnel and all manner of excuses for such things, and if the error is to advantage, well

As for the mounting of very old Indian tulwar blades in recent karabela mounts, the practice seems to have been around for a while, and I always wondered what became of the original hilts or if these were simply trade blades never used. In the instance I have seen the blade was indeed very old, probably latter 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim

24th July 2007, 04:58 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Karabela... but is it genuine Polish? Just ended http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019 The blade carries Indian armoury markings ( Ulwar?) but nothing of Polish connection and the handle, including the leather, is gloriously intact. Any explanations?

24th July 2007, 07:28 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	that 'karabela' looks almost exactly like the Viktor Berbekucz made 16c hungarian sabre i have, it was custom forged by him a couple years ago out of CV steel and has a modern molded grip, and does not have a channeled and marked spine, just his VB sheild logo near the languet. his catalogue photo: his website appears to be down, but normally resides at http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/ i believe he has based his designs on one of the exhibits at a hungarian nat'l. museum. the blade on the ebay one looks more tulwarish, the grip looks much like my VB one except mine is not grooved under the languet, and is grooved from the languet's lower end to the pommel. the ebay one has an unsharpened tulwarry ricasso, less well defined yelman; mine is sharp to the guard. looks like an indian fitted a hungarian grip and guard to a tulwar blade (or visa versa) to the 'polish' ebay sword. the grip doesn't look very karabela-like to my untrained eyes....but what do i know, maybe a polish lordlet imported an austo-hungarian swordsmith of a distinguished indian ancestry who was a ex-armory blade marker who got nostalgic. Last edited by kronckew; 24th July 2007 at 07:58 AM.

24th July 2007, 09:12 AM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Of course it isn't karabela, and the name used for it was more like marketing concept to attract people. The proper name for this sword is Hungarian-Polish type of course, while many of these were used in both countries. Sabres like that one, used in Poland (up to the half of the 17th century, then it started to disappear, thought in Hungary last a little longer with some later variations) were usually mounted with blades from Genoa or made as Genoa blades, with characteristic 'sickles" stamps, thought of course you can find many other blades from Germany or made in Poland (probably) too. This one (I'm sorry I'll be sincere) looks very fake to me. Leather it too new, the hilt is too heavy and clumsy. Even the steel, as far as I can conclude from the pictures, doesn't look ancient at all. Fake handle would be an answer for an eastern blade, attached to it just because it does look nice - my opinion. I wouldn't like to discourage every Polish-arms lover but please beware, because there are many fakes of Hungarian-Polish sabres on auctions lately. Through many years there was a lack of these sabres and immediately some of the auction houses started to sell those sabres in many pieces - while no new historical source appeared! So it is suspected already! I have to admit that I had in my hands quite a good copy recently too. With such grip, but very long and heavy blade, straight one, so it was a pallash. It was very good, and I thought about it few days with other people to find all evidences for it to be a fake. The blade was probably old, refitted to newer, Hungarian-Polish type handle, very heavy and bigger then usual, also with a hilt made like that one on ebay (thought a little better). So maybe some pictures of real sabres for you : Attached Images

28th July 2007, 05:02 PM	#8
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Wolviex-Great Posting Great post Wolviex, Was great to see a close up on your Polish sword. Some polish items are so rare even the Metropolitan Museum of Art does not have one, a winged hussar armor for example. Copies are so rampant now, very few dealers are ever prosectited for fraud, although there are a few in jail. Never sell a fake to the Vice Presidents physician..... I feel sorry for the people that spend there hard earned monay and then find out they have lost everything, especially when they but from a dealer. A proffessional is held to a much higher standard of knowledge. Don't know of one auction house that is totally reputable, this includes, Sotheby's, Christies, Czerneys, Herman Historica and Butterfields. I can tell you stories about all these auction houses. There are also some very good dealers that really help new collectors and offer profound detailed information. Then there are some dealers that prey on novices...... Everyone makes mistakes, I operate on the assumption that if I don't make any mistakes I am not buying enough pieces.... If its too good of a deal, soemthing may be wrong. One good Polish sword would look really nice on the wall next to my desk... rand

24th July 2007, 02:02 PM	#4
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	I totally agree with Michal, the blade is from tulwar and the handle is very recent work, poorly done. There are some... polish hungarian swords on the market here in Poland and it seems that part of those went for a trip to USA

24th July 2007, 02:05 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I remember this sword at the Baltimore show earlier this year and had a chance to handle it. The blade is Indian and is an old blade. By old, I mean 18th or 19th century. You can see the armoury markings on the spine. Notice also the typical Indian ricasso at the forte. You have the interesting "channeled" spine which is not common but is found on some Indian, Chinese and E European blades. The blade has genuine wear throughout. The hilt, however, is another matter. As you can see from one of the pictures, the vertical guard still has a lot of tooling marks. They look a bit clumsy to me and somewhat crude. The leather is fairly nicely done but does not show a lot of genuine age. So, a composite piece of antique blade with newer handle of unknown age but almost certainly 20th century.

24th July 2007, 04:01 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In my original posting I purposefully tried to sound neutral. I am sure it is a hybrid sword, with old Indian blade and new "Polish-Hungarian"- type handle and crossguard.

26th July 2007, 04:24 PM	#7
Jamaz Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lower Silesia, Poland Posts: 9	It's fake in my opinion. Agree with Wolview. The leather too new, crossguard as well, no rivets, etc. Even shape of this sabre does not convince me.

28th July 2007, 05:47 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,949	I completely agree with Rand and his extremely well worded assessment, in acquiring weapons one will make mistakes, and will gain knowledge in sometimes painful degree. While this knowledge is of course useful, it is better to learn as much as possible 'before' buying weapons and the degree of injury will be less. Hopefully the information shared on the forum here has helped others as I know it has helped me. The next key is to find a dealer you trust and try to focus on dealing with them whenever possible. Obviously deals 'too good to be true' have increased in volume with the advent of computers and ebay et al. The sheepish ploy of many the coy seller who 'inherited this' , found it in an estate sale but doesn't know what it is etc etc.has all been tiresomely played out, and it is difficult to determine with unknowns when this might surprisingly be the case. In those cases, research before bidding, contact dealers or professionals you trust. Everybody makes mistakes, and the big boy auction houses are not immune. however with the knowledge base that seems certain with thier staff it would seem surprising that inaccuracy would occur. Naturally, money prevails and is known to turn heads away from such matters. In these busy times it has become to easy to blame volume, shortage of personnel and all manner of excuses for such things, and if the error is to advantage, well As for the mounting of very old Indian tulwar blades in recent karabela mounts, the practice seems to have been around for a while, and I always wondered what became of the original hilts or if these were simply trade blades never used. In the instance I have seen the blade was indeed very old, probably latter 17th century. All best regards, Jim