Yet Another Moro Kriss

Jazz · 21st July 2007, 11:56 PM

Hi. First of all, I would like to say how lucky I am to find such an incredibly great forum! I've been lurking here for awhile, and just recently join. As far as collection goes, what I have are mostly replicas, purchased from K-Bud and various flea markets. What meager Moro weapons I have in my possession are nothing to write home about; mostly from turn of the 20th century, ones that goes for cheap on a good day.

Well, my luck finally change for the better a few weeks ago. As I was searching ebay, I came across this item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1

and was surprised that it went on for 4 days without anyone buying it since it has a Buy-it-Now option. My first impression was perhaps it was fake, but I decided to jump on it anyway since it was within my price range.. After receiving the kriss from the seller,

again, I was pleasantly surprise to find out that not only was this kriss authentic, it's a rare form unlike what I've seen before. It might not seem a lot compared to the extravagant krisses that some of the collectors in this forum have in their inventory, but for someone like me that is more into the historical aspects of these weapons, acquiring this piece was exilarating to say the least.

I will now attempt, to my best knowledge, explain why I think this kriss is 'rare'. At first glance, I thought it was a Sulu piece, but upon closer examination, it's actually Maranao. What is so intriguing about this is the fact that it's an older Maranao blade (1700's) based on the elephant trunk, which was made cruder compared to the later ones (1800's to 20th century).

to be continued...

David · 22nd July 2007, 03:52 AM

Welcome to the forum Jazz. Very nice kris, especially for that money...however, i sincerely doubt it is older then late 19thC.
For some reason none of your close-ups appear, but the profile of this blade is nothing like the "archaic" kris from the 1700s.
The inlays look nice. As for the inscription, perhaps you could re-post your close-ups. Very doubtful it would be in Jawi though. The scale pattern is not one we haven't seen before and i am sure you will see a few posted by other forumites. I don't see anything particularly rare about the kakatau, but again i can't see the close-ups.
It certainly is a fine weapon and i would be excited to own it myself (especially at that price), but i am afraid it is not particularly odd or rare. Congrats on a great buy though.

Ian · 22nd July 2007, 03:56 AM

Hi Jazz:

I must agree with David. This looks like a late 19th/early 20th C kris with an even more recent hilt. The hilt was probably made in Mindanao, but the blade may be Sulu.

Nice kris at a very good price. Congratulations and welcome to the Forum.

Ian.

Battara · 22nd July 2007, 06:48 AM

I agree with Dave and Ian. I also suspect that the hilt wrap is a later replacement for missing bands - it is missing a silver ferrule to at least match the silver top. Try your closeups again please.

Jazz · 22nd July 2007, 09:05 AM

sorry guys, I was in a rush. Here's the continuation:

Also, another telltale sign would be the ukkil decorations on the handle.

Going back to this kriss's age: my assertion of it being from the 1700's were based on the size of the sword, which is 'diminutive' compared to the later ones; and more importantly, the rare transitional pommel style which is a cross between the 'ancient' type cockatoo and the more 'modern' type which tends to have a longer beak and flared out plume, albeit narrower in total width.

to be continued...

Jazz · 22nd July 2007, 09:06 AM

continuation:

It's possible that the handle is not original to the blade, but I would dare say that's highly unlikely. Another evidence that this was an older sword is how the length of the handle is smaller than the more 'recent' krisses. Yes, there's a possibility that it could be a boy's kriss, but one must remember that people a few hundred years ago were slightly smaller than their present day counterpart, not unlike us compared to our predessesor in this country a century or so ago.

Now here's the best part: the inlays on the blade. I have seen some of the more common designs and patterns in this forum, but I can't find a single pattern similar to the one on this kriss. I'm preplexed as to what it signify, half guessing that perhaps it represents the scales of a snake.

But what's throwing me off are what's on the tip of these inlays. Please note that it's not in mirror image on both sides, a common trait with decorative inlays, rather it's two different designs altogether.

I'm not really familiar with the native writings of that era, but i'm half guessing it's either jawi, and if it is, it's someone's name (original owner? sword's name?), OR some type of symbol related to the beliefs of the culture at that time. Another curve ball is the fact that if the blade represent a snake in motion, and the inlays are scale, then why would the handle represent a bird's head, as we now take for granted? As far as I'm concerned, there are no mythological creature of this type in Moroland, a half snake/half bird creature. This is where I would like to hear everyone's opinion. From what I've seen and read from previous posts, there seems to be no shortage of intelligent members in this forum. Perhaps, by posting this here, it could be analyze or even identified by the house experts. I would really appreciate on whatever else comments that any of you can add.

Otherwise, I think that it's a real neat sword, far cry from the replica and cheap swords that I ever own. Although this kriss is much lighter, I'm just amazed at the balance of this deadly weapon, still sharp from all these centuries. I realize that this is not really my field of expertise, so whatever I've written are purely my opinion, but nevertheless, I hope I haven't offended anyone with my writing. Thank you for reading my first post.

Flavio · 22nd July 2007, 10:31 AM

Hi Jazz, first of all welcome to the forum

Second let me say that i'm completly ignorant on moro arms, but I love them and I'm trying to learn more about them

If I remember right Cato, in his book, says that the older blade are characterized by a line of separation from gangya and blade that is almost horizontal. In the other hand late 19th century and early 20th century blades shows a line with a degree of 45°, like yours. More, even if the blade rapresents the naga (with beautiful scales on your piece) it's not unusual to find serpetine blades with cacatooa handle. Anyway I will be happy to find such a nice kris also for twice the price you have paid !!!

Bill · 22nd July 2007, 02:56 PM

Hi Jazz & Welcome. I agree with all the comments made so far. I'd guess your sword is between 100 & 125 years old. If you etch it, I wouldn't be surprised if a nice "marble" pattern didn't come out. These swords were made by a lot of different groups & specifically for ones preference. Some are so large & heavy, I wonder how effectively they were used. There has been discussion in the past about the smaller kakatua, smaller then yours. While some think it's a sign of age (& I agree, most are older), I think it is Indonesian. Nice sword & one I'm sure most of us would want in our collections.

Jazz · 22nd July 2007, 04:02 PM

Thanks for everyone's welcome! That was my first guess, that it's a late 1800 sword, when I saw it the first time, but there's something about the way it handles. Also I forgot to mention that the length of just the blade itself is 19", smaller that the typical krisses that was common during the revolutionary/phil-am war and later era, when these swords were more flamboyant and bigger.
As far as what you mentioned Bill, in regards to the smaller cockatoo pommels; that's exactly what I was trying to say, that the smaller ones (smaller that what I have) are truly archaic, perhaps late 1600's/early 1700's, and at some point there has to be a transitional period and I am assuming that this type of cockatoo pommel are the missing link. That is just my opinion , though. And yes, I have etched this, and a few 'marbled pattern' appeared, but I've decided to leave it as it is, since I don't really see the point of the pattern over-riding the inlay pattern. Btw, can you tell me more about the inlay? The Indonesian angle is a possibility as well, but I really don't have any provenanced example to compare it with.
As far as what you mentioned, Battara, the handle wrap is old, and again, I would assume it's original to the sword rather that a rewrapped in the later period.

Quote:

but the profile of this blade is nothing like the "archaic" kris from the 1700s.

David, could you please explain what an archaic kriss profile would be? I would like to compare this with what I have. Thank you in advance.

Quote:

This looks like a late 19th/early 20th C kris with an even more recent hilt.

Ian, I was under the impression that later hilts were bigger and more flamboyant, therefore I would respectfully disagree that the smaller ones are recent.

Again, thank you for everyone's assessment, More comments would be truly appreciated.

Rick · 22nd July 2007, 04:45 PM

I've always been intrigued by the stylistic differences in these pommels.
I believe the wood one shown may be from a Mindanao tribe.
Welcome Jazz .

Bill · 22nd July 2007, 05:27 PM

It's almost maddening to try & define age & group for each one of these swords. I think one, over times just forms a general opinion of when & where they originated. These groups each had their own craftmen that had different techniques & skills. Then add in, updated or replaced hilts only a generation later may have stylistic changes; engravings or file modification may be added sometime after origination. I've read a bit about customs & religion of the mountain tribes of Luzon. What one may think would be a major definition can be something quite different from one clan in the same group, not to mention other neighboring groups. As soon as you make a rule to follow, you'll find an example that discounts the theory.

David · 22nd July 2007, 06:03 PM

Jazz, if you own Robert Cato's book Moro Sword you can find examples of the "archaic" form of kris which he would date to the 1700s. I don't personally own one of these so i can't post one, but they tended to be less wide and with less and deeper curves. They were probably used much more as a stabbing weapon than a slashing one, more like their Indonesian keris counterpart. Though you cannot see the full profile of the blade i believe Rick's second posted kris, with the ivory kakatau, would be an example of this type. Note also how the line of the gangya goes pretty much straight across on this blade as opposed to yours or Rick's other example where the line takes a 45 degree turn. This is usually another sign of an earlier blade.
Now that i can see the close-ups i am not sure what it is that you believe is writing (Jawi or otherwise). I think that all the inlay is just design features and not intended as writing.
As for the size of your blade, i own 2 kris which date to not earlier than the late 19thC that have blades under 20". I don't think this is a reliable factor in determining age. It is true that the "archaic" forms are generally smaller blade (around 18"), but certainly blades in this length range were made into the 20thC.

Jazz · 23rd July 2007, 01:10 AM

Thank you guys. very interesting responses.

kai · 23rd July 2007, 01:31 AM

Welcome to the forum, Jazz!

Quote:

At first glance, I thought it was a Sulu piece, but upon closer examination, it's actually Maranao. What is so intriguing about this is the fact that it's an older Maranao blade (1700's) based on the elephant trunk, which was made cruder compared to the later ones (1800's to 20th century).

I do believe that this really is Sulu style rather than Maranao: AFAIK, that "Maranao bulge" isn't decisive - it needs to be accompagnied with a mouth parallel to the gangya to point to a Maranao origin. I'd guess it to be 100-150 years old.

Even with the non-traditionally rewrapped hilt a bargain. Congrats!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 23rd July 2007, 01:49 AM

Quote:

It's possible that the handle is not original to the blade, but I would dare say that's highly unlikely. Another evidence that this was an older sword is how the length of the handle is smaller than the more 'recent' krisses.

The pommel is genuine and has some age but it's next to impossible to verify wether it's original. Smaller pommels were utilised into the 20th c. AFAIK, so they don't help much with dating a piece. Some Sulu (and Indonesian) kris seem to have small hilts (with narrow grips apparently intended for small hands) - including later examples.

Regards,
Kai

Jazz · 23rd July 2007, 05:27 AM

Bill, it appears as if the pommels on our kriss is identical; as a matter of fact, it is! what's your humble opinion in regards to the age of your kriss? I would be interested to know if you don't mind.

Kai, very interesting observation. Yes, smaller pommels has been utilized in the 20th century, and by no means I'm inferring that it's an earlier century monopoly, it's just that this certain style somehow are more common with the earlier krisses. As far as the Maranao bulge: this kriss is interesting in that it's angled enough to be mistaken as Sulu, but yet the small bulge (see picture above) kinda threw it off, hence my theory that this is an earlier form of a Maranao bulge, IMHO...

Please keep the comments coming guys. This is indeed a very interesting topic.

kai · 23rd July 2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Bill, it appears as if the pommels on our kriss is identical; as a matter of fact, it is!

Just quite - there are subtle differences in both!

Quote:

As far as the Maranao bulge: this kriss is interesting in that it's angled enough to be mistaken as Sulu, but yet the small bulge (see picture above) kinda threw it off, hence my theory that this is an earlier form of a Maranao bulge, IMHO...

It seems to be the other way round: the angled mouth/beak makes it Sulu - (regardless wether there is a bulge or not: it seems that the Maranao modified an already existing design). However, like in all things Moro, there will be probably exceptions...

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 25th July 2007, 06:33 PM

I'm with Kai on this - this is a Sulu blade.

Also the inlay I agree is probably snake scales, but near the top is not jawi but okir decoration - very common on these in this way.

A very nice piece.

Shame some of the inlay is coming out.

On the "elephant" I have seen the exact same thing on those of early 20th century pieces (I even had one once).

As far as the pommels are concerned, it is the very small ones that seem to be older in general.

21st July 2007, 11:56 PM	#1
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Yet Another Moro Kriss Hi. First of all, I would like to say how lucky I am to find such an incredibly great forum! I've been lurking here for awhile, and just recently join. As far as collection goes, what I have are mostly replicas, purchased from K-Bud and various flea markets. What meager Moro weapons I have in my possession are nothing to write home about; mostly from turn of the 20th century, ones that goes for cheap on a good day. Well, my luck finally change for the better a few weeks ago. As I was searching ebay, I came across this item: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1 and was surprised that it went on for 4 days without anyone buying it since it has a Buy-it-Now option. My first impression was perhaps it was fake, but I decided to jump on it anyway since it was within my price range.. After receiving the kriss from the seller, again, I was pleasantly surprise to find out that not only was this kriss authentic, it's a rare form unlike what I've seen before. It might not seem a lot compared to the extravagant krisses that some of the collectors in this forum have in their inventory, but for someone like me that is more into the historical aspects of these weapons, acquiring this piece was exilarating to say the least. I will now attempt, to my best knowledge, explain why I think this kriss is 'rare'. At first glance, I thought it was a Sulu piece, but upon closer examination, it's actually Maranao. What is so intriguing about this is the fact that it's an older Maranao blade (1700's) based on the elephant trunk, which was made cruder compared to the later ones (1800's to 20th century). to be continued... Last edited by Jazz; 22nd July 2007 at 08:59 AM. Reason: edited for pictures and post length

22nd July 2007, 03:52 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Welcome to the forum Jazz. Very nice kris, especially for that money...however, i sincerely doubt it is older then late 19thC. For some reason none of your close-ups appear, but the profile of this blade is nothing like the "archaic" kris from the 1700s. The inlays look nice. As for the inscription, perhaps you could re-post your close-ups. Very doubtful it would be in Jawi though. The scale pattern is not one we haven't seen before and i am sure you will see a few posted by other forumites. I don't see anything particularly rare about the kakatau, but again i can't see the close-ups. It certainly is a fine weapon and i would be excited to own it myself (especially at that price), but i am afraid it is not particularly odd or rare. Congrats on a great buy though. Last edited by David; 22nd July 2007 at 08:14 AM. Reason: spelling!

22nd July 2007, 04:45 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Kakatuas I've always been intrigued by the stylistic differences in these pommels. I believe the wood one shown may be from a Mindanao tribe. Welcome Jazz . Attached Images

22nd July 2007, 03:56 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Jazz: I must agree with David. This looks like a late 19th/early 20th C kris with an even more recent hilt. The hilt was probably made in Mindanao, but the blade may be Sulu. Nice kris at a very good price. Congratulations and welcome to the Forum. Ian.

22nd July 2007, 06:48 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I agree with Dave and Ian. I also suspect that the hilt wrap is a later replacement for missing bands - it is missing a silver ferrule to at least match the silver top. Try your closeups again please.

22nd July 2007, 09:05 AM	#5
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	sorry guys, I was in a rush. Here's the continuation: Also, another telltale sign would be the ukkil decorations on the handle. Going back to this kriss's age: my assertion of it being from the 1700's were based on the size of the sword, which is 'diminutive' compared to the later ones; and more importantly, the rare transitional pommel style which is a cross between the 'ancient' type cockatoo and the more 'modern' type which tends to have a longer beak and flared out plume, albeit narrower in total width. to be continued...

22nd July 2007, 09:06 AM	#6
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	continuation: It's possible that the handle is not original to the blade, but I would dare say that's highly unlikely. Another evidence that this was an older sword is how the length of the handle is smaller than the more 'recent' krisses. Yes, there's a possibility that it could be a boy's kriss, but one must remember that people a few hundred years ago were slightly smaller than their present day counterpart, not unlike us compared to our predessesor in this country a century or so ago. Now here's the best part: the inlays on the blade. I have seen some of the more common designs and patterns in this forum, but I can't find a single pattern similar to the one on this kriss. I'm preplexed as to what it signify, half guessing that perhaps it represents the scales of a snake. But what's throwing me off are what's on the tip of these inlays. Please note that it's not in mirror image on both sides, a common trait with decorative inlays, rather it's two different designs altogether. I'm not really familiar with the native writings of that era, but i'm half guessing it's either jawi, and if it is, it's someone's name (original owner? sword's name?), OR some type of symbol related to the beliefs of the culture at that time. Another curve ball is the fact that if the blade represent a snake in motion, and the inlays are scale, then why would the handle represent a bird's head, as we now take for granted? As far as I'm concerned, there are no mythological creature of this type in Moroland, a half snake/half bird creature. This is where I would like to hear everyone's opinion. From what I've seen and read from previous posts, there seems to be no shortage of intelligent members in this forum. Perhaps, by posting this here, it could be analyze or even identified by the house experts. I would really appreciate on whatever else comments that any of you can add. Otherwise, I think that it's a real neat sword, far cry from the replica and cheap swords that I ever own. Although this kriss is much lighter, I'm just amazed at the balance of this deadly weapon, still sharp from all these centuries. I realize that this is not really my field of expertise, so whatever I've written are purely my opinion, but nevertheless, I hope I haven't offended anyone with my writing. Thank you for reading my first post.

22nd July 2007, 10:31 AM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jazz, first of all welcome to the forum Second let me say that i'm completly ignorant on moro arms, but I love them and I'm trying to learn more about them If I remember right Cato, in his book, says that the older blade are characterized by a line of separation from gangya and blade that is almost horizontal. In the other hand late 19th century and early 20th century blades shows a line with a degree of 45°, like yours. More, even if the blade rapresents the naga (with beautiful scales on your piece) it's not unusual to find serpetine blades with cacatooa handle. Anyway I will be happy to find such a nice kris also for twice the price you have paid !!!

22nd July 2007, 02:56 PM	#8
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Jazz & Welcome. I agree with all the comments made so far. I'd guess your sword is between 100 & 125 years old. If you etch it, I wouldn't be surprised if a nice "marble" pattern didn't come out. These swords were made by a lot of different groups & specifically for ones preference. Some are so large & heavy, I wonder how effectively they were used. There has been discussion in the past about the smaller kakatua, smaller then yours. While some think it's a sign of age (& I agree, most are older), I think it is Indonesian. Nice sword & one I'm sure most of us would want in our collections.

22nd July 2007, 05:27 PM	#11
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	It's almost maddening to try & define age & group for each one of these swords. I think one, over times just forms a general opinion of when & where they originated. These groups each had their own craftmen that had different techniques & skills. Then add in, updated or replaced hilts only a generation later may have stylistic changes; engravings or file modification may be added sometime after origination. I've read a bit about customs & religion of the mountain tribes of Luzon. What one may think would be a major definition can be something quite different from one clan in the same group, not to mention other neighboring groups. As soon as you make a rule to follow, you'll find an example that discounts the theory.

22nd July 2007, 06:03 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Jazz, if you own Robert Cato's book Moro Sword you can find examples of the "archaic" form of kris which he would date to the 1700s. I don't personally own one of these so i can't post one, but they tended to be less wide and with less and deeper curves. They were probably used much more as a stabbing weapon than a slashing one, more like their Indonesian keris counterpart. Though you cannot see the full profile of the blade i believe Rick's second posted kris, with the ivory kakatau, would be an example of this type. Note also how the line of the gangya goes pretty much straight across on this blade as opposed to yours or Rick's other example where the line takes a 45 degree turn. This is usually another sign of an earlier blade. Now that i can see the close-ups i am not sure what it is that you believe is writing (Jawi or otherwise). I think that all the inlay is just design features and not intended as writing. As for the size of your blade, i own 2 kris which date to not earlier than the late 19thC that have blades under 20". I don't think this is a reliable factor in determining age. It is true that the "archaic" forms are generally smaller blade (around 18"), but certainly blades in this length range were made into the 20thC.

23rd July 2007, 01:10 AM	#13
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Thank you guys. very interesting responses.

23rd July 2007, 05:27 AM	#16
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Bill, it appears as if the pommels on our kriss is identical; as a matter of fact, it is! what's your humble opinion in regards to the age of your kriss? I would be interested to know if you don't mind. Kai, very interesting observation. Yes, smaller pommels has been utilized in the 20th century, and by no means I'm inferring that it's an earlier century monopoly, it's just that this certain style somehow are more common with the earlier krisses. As far as the Maranao bulge: this kriss is interesting in that it's angled enough to be mistaken as Sulu, but yet the small bulge (see picture above) kinda threw it off, hence my theory that this is an earlier form of a Maranao bulge, IMHO... Please keep the comments coming guys. This is indeed a very interesting topic.

25th July 2007, 06:33 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I'm with Kai on this - this is a Sulu blade. Also the inlay I agree is probably snake scales, but near the top is not jawi but okir decoration - very common on these in this way. A very nice piece. Shame some of the inlay is coming out. On the "elephant" I have seen the exact same thing on those of early 20th century pieces (I even had one once). As far as the pommels are concerned, it is the very small ones that seem to be older in general.