Islamic dagger with gold inscription

eftihis · 5th March 2005, 07:04 PM

This is a dagger that i have but i have no clue where it is from, and what the inscription is saying. I would be greatfull for any help!

Yannis · 5th March 2005, 08:23 PM

Very nice and unusual dagger. It has a certain Bosnian look. I can read only the date 1299 that is 1882 in Gregorian calentar. What is the material of the hilt? Bone or ivory?

eftihis · 5th March 2005, 08:42 PM

It is ivory, with inserts of small corall pieces and brass nails. Also the green "ring" near the blade in stained green ivory. I bought it under the description "arab dagger", but it is true that the brass dots remid me bosnia. Not the scabbard thought.

Battara · 6th March 2005, 12:08 PM

Yeah, I'm thinking Bosnian as well. Shame I can't read Arabic.

Raja Muda · 7th March 2005, 02:53 AM

Gentlemen,

After looking through the inscription, I've ruled out Arabic. I've attempted a reading but since the Arabic alphabet makes do with very little vowels, the actual pronunciation might be distorted. Hope someone with a knowledge of Turkish or Balkan languages can take it from here:

'Aqladan harsako yardawud foce Mustafa lataik sanat 1299'

At least we've identified the name Mustafa (who could either be the craftsman responsible or the owner) and the hegira year of 1299. Someone will have to check the corresponding gregorian year.

best wishes

erlikhan · 7th March 2005, 09:35 AM

knife is Bosnian, but the scabbard most probably not original.not style of that knife. old but a replacement. perhaps by a bayonet leather? the tip mounting of the scabbard is a bad later repair too. but koftgari on the blade is very beautiful sample. Inscription can be Turkish or one of Bosnian and Albanian languages which has Turkish words in them. One thing is clear . Assuming the wowels are not proper, it writes "Hersek" , Herzegovina was called "Hersek" in Ottoman period. and, "yardavud" could be instead "arnavud" , which means "Albanian". Can be roughly something like "Albanian Mustafa from Herzegovina made(sanat) in 1299".
Raja Muda, did you put the vowels according to the translation or just guessing so?

Conogre · 7th March 2005, 02:09 PM

Perhaps a dumb question, but what does the "end" of the hilt look like?
From the first time I looked at this something about the blade shape, scabbard and "chappe"(?) end piece has been nagging at me.......I think it's a straight bladed variant of a yatagan, which would be entirely appropriate for the area.
Mike

Yannis · 7th March 2005, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

Perhaps a dumb question, but what does the "end" of the hilt look like?
From the first time I looked at this something about the blade shape, scabbard and "chappe"(?) end piece has been nagging at me.......I think it's a straight bladed variant of a yatagan, which would be entirely appropriate for the area.
Mike

Mike
I have not seen it closely, but I am almost sure that it is not a split pommel if this you mean. I think hilt has this “bird head” end, that is also very common in the area. We dont call it yataghan.

Kamil · 8th March 2005, 12:51 AM

Hi,
I was off-line for a quite long time (and even now I can't lurk here as frequently as I'd like to do it). Nevermind. I agree with Raja Muda that the inscription seems Turkish, but I propose another reading of its initial part:

Akaldan (q=k in Turkish graphy) hersekwind awad (or: od) foche (where "ch" as in "cheese") Mustafa etc.

But, of course, the vowels can be only guessed.

Greetings

Raja Muda · 9th March 2005, 08:47 AM

Hi Erlikhan,

Putting in the vowels is part of the guesswork since the Arabic alphabet system is by and large made up of consonants. Each language that adopted the Arabic alphabet had their own way with spelling words, as well as additional consonants to pronounce sounds non-existent in Arabic.
My knowledge is limited to what I know of Arabic as well as old Malay, which uses a similar system. It's good that Kamil has provided an alternative reading so that we can cover all angles of the inscription.

regards

Raja Muda

Conogre · 11th March 2005, 08:42 PM

Yes, I WAS wondering if it had an ottoman style "eared hilt" although there's another similar knife with the "birds head" hilt(very well described, thank you) and not eared that I was told is called a "masume"(sp?) or something similar as this is the name of the Turkish town where they are primarily made, possibly even originated, and the style is highly favored.
I bought an old yatagan and a small version of the other style with a pink dyed ivory hilt about 5 years ago directly from a gentleman in Ismir, who related the history of the name to me.....that's not to say he wasn't pulling a western leg, of course.
Mike

erlikhan · 11th March 2005, 09:48 PM

hi Raja Muda.hmm.well, Kamil's readings worked greatly for me before, but this time his version didn't mean anything understandable to me . Yours sounds much familiar to Turkish or a Balkan language mixed with it and i was hopeful about the translation i made but if you've read it in Malay style and it needs to be different than Ottoman style, then not much I can guess with the existing clues in hand. If not Turkish, it gives a bit feeling like Albanian however.

Kamil · 12th March 2005, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

knife is Bosnian, but the scabbard most probably not original.not style of that knife. old but a replacement. perhaps by a bayonet leather? the tip mounting of the scabbard is a bad later repair too. but koftgari on the blade is very beautiful sample. Inscription can be Turkish or one of Bosnian and Albanian languages which has Turkish words in them. One thing is clear . Assuming the wowels are not proper, it writes "Hersek" , Herzegovina was called "Hersek" in Ottoman period. and, "yardavud" could be instead "arnavud" , which means "Albanian". Can be roughly something like "Albanian Mustafa from Herzegovina made(sanat) in 1299".
Raja Muda, did you put the vowels according to the translation or just guessing so?

Hi Erlikhan,
Just some thoughts: there are some problems with this reading:
1. "Sanat" (lit. "sana"), when written under the date, is definitely an Arabic word and means "year"; it cannot be understood as "made";
What about the first word? It can be also "akildan", "aklidan" etc. (ak-l-d-n)
3. the relevant part of the text cannot be "yardavud"; there is written:
h-r-s-k-w-i-n-d-a-w-d-f-w-ch-e(?)
where "w" can be Turkish "o", "u" or "v";
of course this phrase can contain several words, eg:
h-r-s-k-w-i-n-d a-w-d-f-w-ch-e(?)
h-r-s-k-w i-n-d-a-w-d-f-w-ch-e(?)
i-n-d a-w-d f-w ch-e(?)
etc.
maybe it can be Hersekvinde? But I don't know, how the ending -de/-da was written in the Ottoman times and if the name Hersekvin was also used, or Hersek only?
Greetings
Kamil

5th March 2005, 07:04 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Islamic dagger with gold inscription This is a dagger that i have but i have no clue where it is from, and what the inscription is saying. I would be greatfull for any help! Attached Images

7th March 2005, 02:53 AM	#5
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Usmanli Inscription? Gentlemen, After looking through the inscription, I've ruled out Arabic. I've attempted a reading but since the Arabic alphabet makes do with very little vowels, the actual pronunciation might be distorted. Hope someone with a knowledge of Turkish or Balkan languages can take it from here: 'Aqladan harsako yardawud foce Mustafa lataik sanat 1299' At least we've identified the name Mustafa (who could either be the craftsman responsible or the owner) and the hegira year of 1299. Someone will have to check the corresponding gregorian year. best wishes

7th March 2005, 09:35 AM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	knife is Bosnian, but the scabbard most probably not original.not style of that knife. old but a replacement. perhaps by a bayonet leather? the tip mounting of the scabbard is a bad later repair too. but koftgari on the blade is very beautiful sample. Inscription can be Turkish or one of Bosnian and Albanian languages which has Turkish words in them. One thing is clear . Assuming the wowels are not proper, it writes "Hersek" , Herzegovina was called "Hersek" in Ottoman period. and, "yardavud" could be instead "arnavud" , which means "Albanian". Can be roughly something like "Albanian Mustafa from Herzegovina made(sanat) in 1299". Raja Muda, did you put the vowels according to the translation or just guessing so? Last edited by erlikhan; 7th March 2005 at 11:14 AM.

9th March 2005, 08:47 AM	#10
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Vowels Hi Erlikhan, Putting in the vowels is part of the guesswork since the Arabic alphabet system is by and large made up of consonants. Each language that adopted the Arabic alphabet had their own way with spelling words, as well as additional consonants to pronounce sounds non-existent in Arabic. My knowledge is limited to what I know of Arabic as well as old Malay, which uses a similar system. It's good that Kamil has provided an alternative reading so that we can cover all angles of the inscription. regards Raja Muda

5th March 2005, 08:23 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Very nice and unusual dagger. It has a certain Bosnian look. I can read only the date 1299 that is 1882 in Gregorian calentar. What is the material of the hilt? Bone or ivory?

5th March 2005, 08:42 PM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	It is ivory, with inserts of small corall pieces and brass nails. Also the green "ring" near the blade in stained green ivory. I bought it under the description "arab dagger", but it is true that the brass dots remid me bosnia. Not the scabbard thought.

6th March 2005, 12:08 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Yeah, I'm thinking Bosnian as well. Shame I can't read Arabic.

7th March 2005, 02:09 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Perhaps a dumb question, but what does the "end" of the hilt look like? From the first time I looked at this something about the blade shape, scabbard and "chappe"(?) end piece has been nagging at me.......I think it's a straight bladed variant of a yatagan, which would be entirely appropriate for the area. Mike

8th March 2005, 12:51 AM	#9
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	Hi, I was off-line for a quite long time (and even now I can't lurk here as frequently as I'd like to do it). Nevermind. I agree with Raja Muda that the inscription seems Turkish, but I propose another reading of its initial part: Akaldan (q=k in Turkish graphy) hersekwind awad (or: od) foche (where "ch" as in "cheese") Mustafa etc. But, of course, the vowels can be only guessed. Greetings

11th March 2005, 08:42 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Yes, I WAS wondering if it had an ottoman style "eared hilt" although there's another similar knife with the "birds head" hilt(very well described, thank you) and not eared that I was told is called a "masume"(sp?) or something similar as this is the name of the Turkish town where they are primarily made, possibly even originated, and the style is highly favored. I bought an old yatagan and a small version of the other style with a pink dyed ivory hilt about 5 years ago directly from a gentleman in Ismir, who related the history of the name to me.....that's not to say he wasn't pulling a western leg, of course. Mike

11th March 2005, 09:48 PM	#12
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hi Raja Muda.hmm.well, Kamil's readings worked greatly for me before, but this time his version didn't mean anything understandable to me . Yours sounds much familiar to Turkish or a Balkan language mixed with it and i was hopeful about the translation i made but if you've read it in Malay style and it needs to be different than Ottoman style, then not much I can guess with the existing clues in hand. If not Turkish, it gives a bit feeling like Albanian however.