Is this a Javanese keris blade?

[BluErf]

Is this a Javanese keris blade? And why?

[Mans]

Hi BluErf,

You posted a Javanese keris, called Megantara Luk 5.
(Ensiklopedia Keris p:288)

It is an exotic keris. The Dapur keris like that is so rare. Many kind of Keris with Dapor like this, can be luk 5, 7 or 9. But it have a special characteristic ; the Luk just at bottom (Jawa : Sorsoran) to midle blade, and from midle to the top of blade (Jawa : Pucuk) made a stright.

Looks like made from Majapahit or mataram Senopaten period, I think .
The pamor looks like a Wos Wutah.

Just for another example, u can visit :
http://keris.fotopic.net/c364330.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c311734.html
http://www.geocities.com/koleksikeris/Submegantoro.html

Regards,
Mans.

[BluErf]

I don't think its a megantara. That's supposed to have 7 luks isnt it? Plus, isn't it supposed to have a kembang kacang or pogok? It doesn't have the central fuller. This keris has a similar outline with megantara, I feel.

What about the 'c' in the gandik?

[Mans]

I think,
Megantara not just has 7 luks. It can be 5 or 9. The Ensiklopedia just give a one (Luk 7) of several kind Luks of keris with dapur Megantara.

Dapur of javanese keris not too exactly same with shown at Ensiklopedia Keris. Perhaps, many dapur of Javanese keris can't be identified till now.
Or..., some of piece looks like different, but it appear a same dapur.
For example, Keris with dapur Panji Pengantin (Ensiklopedia Keris p:348), try to looking at appendix which shown a Panji Pengantin keris, but it has a different Kembang Kacang

Btw, would you please post some close up photos at sorsoran and bottop of gonjo, so that we can look with clear at "C" (Jawa : Kruwingan) at Gandik ?

regards,
Mans.

[rasdan]

Perhaps this is the empu's exam results (before he started working on the piece):

Proportion = A
Forging = A
Garap = C ...d'oh!!

Just kidding Blu. A very nice piece u got there. Looks like panji pengantin to me.

[BluErf]

Ok, here's the close-up. The keris is a lot sturdier than typical Javanese blades and is tempered half-way through. The metal feels more typical of S. Sumatran kerises too.

[Justin]

Im far from a keris expert but my general impression is that it is peninsular or possibly Balinese.The overall design of the blade just doesnt look Javanese to me.

[Alam Shah]

I don't think it's a Megantara or dapur Panji Pengantin.

The nearest match is Dapur Anoman Luk 5 (Ensiklopedi Keris p:73) minus the kembang kacang. This does not explain the 'c' shape, however.

I noticed that your pendokok is fitted with a Pattani style, pierced Malacca cup (in silver). Very nice...

[Mans]

hi all,

.... Just try to compare type of "Gonjo", "Greneng", "Tikel Alis" and Metal between my Megantara and BluErf. The shape of gonjo called Gonjo Kelap Lintah. Many gonjo like this made from Majapahit to Mataram Senopaten period (for an old keris).

> Style of Tikel Alis and Sogokan similiar with Majapahit or Sedayu keris;
> Style of Greneng looks like a Majapahit keris;
> Style of Gonjo took a characteristic from Majapahit keris;
> The metal looks like a Javanese keris with wos wutah pamored, but because BluErf posted keris which no warangan, so that it looks like different with Javanese keris. Similiar like a Sumateran keris. But, I don't think so;
> If I look closer, the "C" is too sharp, diffrent with the Greneng which look threadbare. But, I think it is an original.

So, without C, both of these keris looks like similiar. I think it is a Javanese keris
But who knows, because I just try to give more opinion by comparing with another same piece and still try to learn more about Javanese keris.

Same with what I said previously, your keris is an exotic, BluErf.

-------------
To Alam Shah,
If you think that BluErf keris nearest match with Dapur Anoman Luk 5, I don't think so.
The Anoman (Hanuman) keris have Sogokan from bottom (Sorsoran) to top of the blade and it has a Kembang Kacang. It have a different style Luks with Megantara or BluErf keris .

Warmest Regards,
Mans.

[Mans]

Megantara Pudhak Sategal tangguh Pajang
Any Idea ?

[Mans]

Anoman (Hanuman) Luk 5 Pamor Wos Wutah Tangguh Mataram Sultan Agung.
(Keris BW Collection)

[Alam Shah]

Mans,

I'm still a learner with an 'L' plate . Having seen your pieces, I tend to agree with your opinion on the similarities with your Megantara. My comparison was based on the megantara piece featured in Ensiklopedi Keris. I presumed that megantara is associated with a luk 7. However, as mentioned by your goodself it may vary (based on your earlier post).

I've looked through Ensiklopedi Keris, Tammens vol.2, 3 and some other keris books and still cannot find any resemblance to the elusive 'c' shape.

BlueErf, I guess it's something exotic and unique to your piece.
Have you asked Dave, Paul or Adni's opinion? They should be able to assist...
Good day.

[BluErf]

Thanks all for the comments, especially Mans for the pictures. The visual comparison is definitely useful. I now have half a mind that this keris is really Javanese in origins, but the other half was looking at the feel and sturdiness of the blade and going "hmmm... maybe not...".

Actually, the pamor plays a part in the opinion-forming process too. (it actually has warangan, just that pamor is not very contrasting). Though its wos utah, it just doesn't look like the type usually seen on Javanese pieces. But then again, it could be because this is an older blade.

When I got this keris, I was really stumped. I guess we always have to keep in mind that kerises move and Empus move. This keris was found in an old East Sumatran/Malay sheath which was made for it. I commissioned the silver works because the sheath was looking really sad in its original state. Its Malay motifs, but I guess still generally "in the same family" given the E Sumatran/Malay connection.

[BluErf]

For comparison, a Malay naga keris from Paul's collection. The luk is of a different style, but look at the 'c' underneath the naga's head.

[Mans]

Nice Scabbard, BluErf.
I think you are very lucky to got keris like yours, because for now, it is too rare dapur.

The Paul's Keris is Malay. The top of blade similiar like a Malay or Sumatran keris. Nice Naga Siluman for collected.

About the 'C' underneath the naga's head, it could be a broken beard of Naga, so that it be came a "C" . Perhaps it was "O", or indeed like "C"

I posted some photos of broken beard of Naga for comparison about the "C" at underneath the Naga's and photos of intact beard

So, the "C" is unique characteristic of your kerises .

Regards,
Mans.

[rasdan]

Hi guys,

I just found another keris with a "C". This is a javaneese keris however. Panji pengantin with a lot of luks. Its supposed to be 5 luks only.

[Alam Shah]

Rasdan, the similarities are close. I take it back...about my earlier comment.
You guys should post pictures like these to accompany your comments, so that we can have a better opinion. The Panji Pengantin form that i saw is way different than the one you posted. (Nice pic by the way.)

BlueErf, nice silverworks. May I ask how you got it commissioned?
Learning things along the way. Thanks guys.

[BluErf]

Ohhh... looks like a cousin! Ok, that definitely tips the scale. Thanks for digging up the pics, Rasdan.

Alam Shah -- Adni can help you with silver works.

[BSMStar]

Here is a Balinese or Lombok Keris with a "C" too. Does anyone know what it is?

[Mans]

BSMStar, "C" at your keris is Jenggot (Jawa) is mean "beard".
one of many Ricikan (Characteristic) Kerises.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Mans

BSMStar, "C" at your keris is Jenggot (Jawa) is mean "beard".
one of many Ricikan (Characteristic) Kerises.

Thank you Mans!!!!!!!

Is this shape the same for the other Javanese Keris?

BSMStar

[Mans]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Thank you Mans!!!!!!!

Is this shape the same for the other Javanese Keris?

BSMStar

I think this shape like african or midle east sword

[BluErf]

Your 'c' is not alone. If the 'c' has its origins in the middle-east, wouldn't be too surprising since many Arab traders travelled here to do business. These 3 are all N. Malay blades.

[BluErf]

Oh, and a sumatran bugis blade with the 'c' too.

[BSMStar]

There must be some meaning or significance behind it. What would the “C” by itself stand for or mean?

[BluErf]

... or it could just be a pattern. Sometimes we read too much into things.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by BluErf

... or it could just be a pattern. Sometimes we read too much into things.

You are probably right BluErf, but these are symbols, and they usually do represent or stand for something... don't they? Especially in the original pictured Keris and the Balinese Keris.... it would seem to be an important feature (or why have it). What purpose would it serve?

[BSMStar]

Here is another "C" .... an angry C? Kind of spooky.