17th April 2007, 07:54 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
OLD OR JUNK?
HI GUYS, friend of mine sent me these pictures.
What do you think? Is it old or just piece of junk? Is there someone have eyes like SUPERMAN? Oh!! What happened with my friend today? Last edited by brekele; 17th April 2007 at 08:19 PM. |
17th April 2007, 09:58 PM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
|
No no, not junk at all! I think this is a very nice Balinese piece. It could do with a clean and etch. I can't tell the age, and I do not know the dapur, although I've seen it before. Maybe not too old? but looks good to me.
Regards, Emanuel |
17th April 2007, 11:26 PM | #3 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
Dapur / Age
Karna Tinanding ?
1900 - pre WW2 ? |
18th April 2007, 01:27 AM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 132
|
A little cleaning and etching would be better to judge the blade profile. I don't think this piece is a junk at all. This is rather a good and rare dapur (Karna Tinanding) with long straight blade and luks 5 or 7 at near tip. One exceptional detail is that one kembang kacang has jenggot and other is plain smooth curve. Fittings are of Balinese style (maybe Lombok). How old...? I'm not sure but assume this could be dated end 19th century.
Again, would appreaciate if this blade is clean and etch so that we could comment further. |
18th April 2007, 03:29 AM | #5 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 49
|
Hi Rick...
As I know Karna Tinanding is straight keris, but this keris at the top (ujung keris) have 6 luk? |
18th April 2007, 05:39 AM | #6 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
Quote:
The yellowish stain to the blade may be due to improper cleaning. Last edited by Alam Shah; 18th April 2007 at 08:06 AM. Reason: spelling |
|
18th April 2007, 12:31 PM | #7 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 69
|
Nice piece .
Clean it up. I am not sure or the 2nd kembang katjang (telaleh gadjah) is added later on ? The 2nd lambeh gadjah looks a little different too. After cleaning and washing the keris will be sure look better, but also spurs of modifications will occur more. |
18th April 2007, 01:25 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 928
|
Also in my opinion no a junk!
The keris could be from Lombok and the blade seems to had been in contact with lemon or lime juice |
18th April 2007, 07:46 PM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Hi GUYS, that's what I thought too. (KARNO TINANDING).
But 6 luk on top? hhmm My opinion would say, M A Y B E....the EMPU who made this blade just copy the original KARNO TINANDING style (let say first pakem in era before) and change it little bit with luk. Because I'm agree with Rick about age (my thought was around 70-80 yrs). Guys sorry, It is just like teory of reality from A KING who copied a castle of A GREAT KING'S castle. Is it reasonable GUYS? YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE? For Emanuel, your eyes it is really like Superman (seriously)!!!. I'm quite often to get pictures with dirty blades. So, I will show you again another one someday. And Newsteel, yes it is!!!! blade was found in LOMBOK ISLAND. I'll bring blade back to forum (of course cleaned condition) to respecting your opinion and all members in this forum. (I hope that blade come to my hand safe and nicely). GUYS, THANK YOU ALL |
19th April 2007, 02:45 AM | #10 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 49
|
[QUOTE=Alam]
....Pandawa Karno Tinanding....... Hai. Alam.... Pandawa means = 5 people (Wayang stories) , so if keris Pandawa Karno Tinanding must be 5 luk not 6 or 7 luk.... thanks Alam |
19th April 2007, 04:25 AM | #11 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
Quote:
|
|
19th April 2007, 12:14 PM | #12 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
|
[QUOTE=cahaya]
Quote:
Just a quick note: - Strictly speaking, Pandawa does not mean five. In the Mahabharata epic, Pandawa was the name of the five Bharata brothers (heroes), sons of Pandhu. They are referred to as: Pancha Pandhava (Sanskrit)/Pandawa Lima (Indo)/Pandawa Five. However, in Indo, some people do take the word Pandawa to be synonymous with five. Although the Dapur Pandawa (and its variations) is merely a subset of the dapurs for the 5-Eluk keris, many people in Indo generally refer to ANY 5-Eluk keris as a 'Pandawa'. - I agree that the particular keris shown above is a 7-Eluk. - I agree that the dapur on the sor-soran in the picture looks like it is acceptable as one of the forms of Karna Tinanding. However, isn't Karna Tinanding generally restricted to straight kerises? Anyway, just my thoughts, for what they're worth. Cheers. Last edited by Pangeran Datu; 19th April 2007 at 12:53 PM. |
|
20th April 2007, 03:20 AM | #13 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 49
|
Hi..all
you are correct pangeran datu |
20th April 2007, 07:17 AM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
PANGERAN DATU, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORDS. THAT'S THIS FORUM ALL ABOUT!!! MY BIG JEMPOL RAISED UP HIGHER THAN MY HEAD FOR YOU.
Is there any kos-kos an for rent near by your house PANGERAN DATU? THANKS bouwneack001. |
21st April 2007, 07:33 PM | #15 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Hi again GUYS, today the blade is cleaned. Now, It's time for me to learn again
Any opinions? Last edited by brekele; 21st April 2007 at 07:55 PM. |
21st April 2007, 09:04 PM | #16 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Very nice cleaning and etching job!
|
21st April 2007, 10:32 PM | #17 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Aaahhhh...that feels better, doesn't it?
I strongly suspect that this keris has had alterations, especially after this cleaning where you can follow the pamor lines. That certainlt doesn't make it junk, but in my eyes it makes it less desirable than it would be in it's original dapur. Nice cleaning job. |
22nd April 2007, 12:29 AM | #18 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
The lower quarter areas does seems modified. The two central grooves (kruwingan) seems to be... the pamor looks 'disturbed'. Probably some other dapur type before it is modified into a Karno Tinanding.
|
22nd April 2007, 01:34 AM | #19 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
The dapur as it appears now lacks a certain flow and harmony; the execution is not too impressive IMO.
|
22nd April 2007, 10:04 AM | #20 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Hi Alam, somehow I tought like you before in first moment I got this dirty blade's pics. (Honestly I'm not good in keris experience but most of my friends in Lombok does very much better than me in this subject).
And then I dialed some mobile numbers to INDO for making sure about this keris being modified/added or not (also for me to learn). And Opinions of those numbers was IMPOSIBLE IF THERE ARE MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IN 80 - 90 YEARS AGO JUST BECAUSE FOR TRADING KERIS. MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IS JUST CAME UP ABOUT LESS THAN 25 YEARS AGO WHEN BOOMING OF KERISES TRADING IS STARTING. GUYS, once again.....I stil learn, those opinion above was just fresh from few DIALLED NUMBERS. And I'm sure ....I BELIEVED THEM (they are some good friends of me). No "CHEAT AND CHAT" in our relationship so far. GUYS, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING ENGLISH TEACHER FOR ME. NOW I'M OFTEN TO OPEN DICTIONARY AGAIN |
22nd April 2007, 10:23 AM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
|
Great job!!!!
Just love this keris!!!! |
22nd April 2007, 02:26 PM | #22 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Quote:
|
|
22nd April 2007, 05:46 PM | #23 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Hi David, you might right. As I said, I'm not experience enought for this subject and stil want to learn about it.
Anyway, price I bought just a bit more I guess for this one. Because this keris was my ordered to a friend and He probebly look around whole LOMBOK to find this keris. But it's oke. EXPERIENCE/EDUCATION about this subject is more important for me. Dave, price you asked? hhhhmmmmm hhmmmm hhhmmmmmm hhmm Oke, I'll tell you...BUT ssssssssttttt...don't tell to Rick,oke? (Rp 1,7 jt). But Now, I have to think sending cost + TAX !!! OHH!!!! OHHH!! HELP? OHH!!! MUNICH is eeeexxpensive Dave! ALAMAAAAAAAKKK................!!!!! INAAAAAAAKKKK........!!!!!! |
22nd April 2007, 07:06 PM | #24 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Actually i wasn't really asking you exactly how much you paid for this keris, that would be rude. Instead i was suggesting that if you consider for yourself how much you paid that information might aid in determining whether this dapur is original or altered work.
As for the taxes, i can certainly relate...but alas, there is not a damn thing we can do about them...Life, Death and Taxes...i am afraid there is little else...oh, and keris of course! |
23rd April 2007, 05:46 PM | #25 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
It's oke Dave, this time my English is a bit chaos!
No more little thing else But keris? Baaaang!!! here they are!!!!! Clean your self!!!, pick up only! and NO PAYPAL,Dave. Address? Somewhere cross beautiful small villages in LOMBOK. PUASS!! PUASS!! |
24th April 2007, 04:22 AM | #26 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Nice collection. Are these all yours or do they belong to your dealer friend?
|
24th April 2007, 05:52 PM | #27 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Hi Dave, some of them are flying already to their new owners.
Some of them as I said, somewhere cross beautifull small villages in LOMBOK. |
4th May 2007, 08:44 AM | #28 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Hi Dave, the Keris Karno Tinanding is already came yesterday.
I looked again and again and again....... Dave, according of authentic kembang kacang of this keris, then this keris is included "keris bener". Kembang kacang on back side (wadidhang -x-) is thick/normal. So, if this keris was already added/modified, then kembang kacang on back side became thin (thiner), and is hard/almost impossible because how to bend/warp (melengkungkan) the kembang kacang by the time iron is hot. Dave, kembang kacang is resulted (dihasilkan) from process of splitting-up iron/blade and (dipuntir = English?) Again, So....if kembang kacang is already thin, then is almost impossible/hard because easy get broken. Dave, sorry....I tried my best to explain it in your languages Dave, the blade is ASLIES but the pamor is not my taste |
4th May 2007, 08:00 PM | #29 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
Why did the Ganja not take the stain in the same way the rest of the blade did ?
Possibly it is not made from the same forging ? |
5th May 2007, 06:33 AM | #30 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 208
|
Yes yes, you right Rick, It is possible of course and also I though same as your when first time I saw it.
Rick, many time I saw this kind of blades in Lombok THAT the blade and gonjo is not same colour and even not same material of iron and here one of them (Pls see pic carrefully). And now come up 2 opinions of me. 1. It is possible that the gonjo is being added later on...(But not for keris trading for now,please). We saw together when blade stil dirty. 2. It could b A TREND for keris at that time in LOMBOK that blade and gonjo is not in same colour/material just to make a little diffrent than others. (Rick, just my opinion). I think, second reason is more I believed now. hmmm.... I wonder what Alan's opinion, Rick. The man knew the field. Rick, let me try to call him from his meditation's cave. He might want to come up. Ooops! I hope, I don't disturb him, otherwise bad dream come true. Hi Alan, How are you today? Last edited by brekele; 5th May 2007 at 06:54 AM. |
|
|