Help with Arabic/Farsi translations?

FenrisWolf · 21st January 2007, 07:44 AM

Hello to the board!

I'm new here, and while I've been collecting ethnographic edged weapons for a while, my knowledge of them is fairly limited. I know enough to be able to usually figure out roughly where something originated (Africa, Asia, India, eic.), and I've managed to pick up a bit more specific knowledge about individual pieces, but for the most part I can't claim more than a layman's "Ooh! Pretty!" knowledge of blades.

That being said, I have several pieces in my collection I'd love to learn more about. One is a small dagger from the Middle East, probably Persia, with a plain hilt and a beautifully worked blade, complete with two inscriptions, one in Arabic and the other in (I think) Farsi. I took it into a local middle eastern deli, and they put me in touch with an Iranian gentlemen gave me a very rough translation. He said one side was a passage from the Koran, the other was an inscription from the smith, something along the lines of 'made in the manner of the sword of the prophet' or words to that effect, and what I *think* is a date. IF it is, and it's in the Arabic calender, it would date the blade to the 1500s. Anyway, here are some pics:

The other dagger I know much less about, other than to suspect it to be Italian, 18th or 19th century, and intended for less than savory purposes. There's no inscription, but there is a brass proofmark in the blade with a signature resembling a stylized man's face with mustache and goatee cut into the metal.

Any help with translating the inscriptions and/or identifying these two daggers will be greatly appreciated! And afterwards, if people don't object too strenuously, I have others I'd like to get people's opinions on (which is really a thinly veiled way of gloating and saying 'look what I got!', but you all knew that, right?)

Thanks in advance,
Fenris

Rick · 21st January 2007, 05:01 PM

Hi Fenris,

Pictures taken without flash would make it much easier to read the script; try shooting outside on a bright overcast day.

Your first piece has a handle that resembles a Bichaq's ; the second piece does, as you say, look like its intentions are less than savory; well put.

Welcome!

Rick

TVV · 21st January 2007, 09:42 PM

I cannot help with the inscription, but the first one looks like coming out of Trebizond - there were a few threads on daggers from this area.
Teodor

FenrisWolf · 21st January 2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Fenris,

Pictures taken without flash would make it much easier to read the script; try shooting outside on a bright overcast day.

Your first piece has a handle that resembles a Bichaq's ; the second piece does, as you say, look like its intentions are less than savory; well put.

Welcome!

Rick

Hi, Rick! Thanks for the welcome to the board, and the suggestion for retaking the photos. I'll give it a shot and see what turns out. Question; given the condition of the blade, does the apparent date make sense? I'd love to believe that this actually dates to the 1500s, but just can't reconcile that much age with the more or less pristine condition of the blade.

Fenris

ham · 22nd January 2007, 12:13 AM

This dagger is certainly Eastern Turkish, probably from the Black Sea region as noted above.
There are a number of forum members who will be happy to read the inscription for you-- speaking strictly for myself I would ask that the photos be closeups and very clear, as the characters can be easily misunderstood if the detail is not precise.

Dating-- these are typically late 19th or early 20th century. Given the photos I can see no reason to suggest that this one dates any earlier.

Ham

FenrisWolf · 22nd January 2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

This dagger is certainly Eastern Turkish, probably from the Black Sea region as noted above.
There are a number of forum members who will be happy to read the inscription for you-- speaking strictly for myself I would ask that the photos be closeups and very clear, as the characters can be easily misunderstood if the detail is not precise.

Dating-- these are typically late 19th or early 20th century. Given the photos I can see no reason to suggest that this one dates any earlier.

Ham

Thanks! I tried retaking the pics, but Murphy as usual is giving me his undivided attention.

In a city infamous for its unrelenting sunny days, today is dark, cloudy and rainy, enough so that even in the open a flash is necessary. I'll try again tomorrow.

Re the date: that's really what I suspected. If the blade showed more age I might be more inclined to accept that the '935' in one inscription referred to the date, but it's just too crisp and clean to support a much older provenance. The wear and tear on the wood hilt is definitely much more in keeping with something from the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Regardless, it's a sweet little dagger and I paid less than $100.00 for it, so I'm not complaining!

Fenris

Jeff D · 22nd January 2007, 01:01 AM

Hi Fenris,

I think I see the numbers 933. The Turks had converted to our calendar in the late 19th century. I think this date is in fact 1933 C.E. .

Hope this helps.
Jeff

FenrisWolf · 22nd January 2007, 01:27 AM

I managed to get decent pics of the inscriptions:

You can see what I thought was a date at the left of the second one. Thanks in advance for help with this!

Fenris

Zifir · 22nd January 2007, 12:43 PM

I agree with Jeff that the date is probably 1933 since I could not see any arabic date on the inscription. In the second picture at the bottom there is a
C. 88 (if I am correct, but I have no idea what it means or why the knifemaker chose to wrote it in half latin and half arabic) I will try to give a meaningful translation of the first inscription later but the knife was made in Erzincan (or Arzincan if you wish) a city in eastern Anatolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzincan

Thus the second picture is

933
Erzincan
--------
Yadigar (souvenir)
C.88
the knifemaker's signature

FenrisWolf · 22nd January 2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

I agree with Jeff that the date is probably 1933 since I could not see any arabic date on the inscription. In the second picture at the bottom there is a
C. 88 (if I am correct, but I have no idea what it means or why the knifemaker chose to wrote it in half latin and half arabic) I will try to give a meaningful translation of the first inscription later but the knife was made in Erzincan (or Arzincan if you wish) a city in eastern Anatolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzincan

Thus the second picture is

933
Erzincan
--------
Yadigar (souvenir)
C.88
the knifemaker's signature

Thanks for the translation! I've owned this dagger for several years and tried repeatedly to find someone who could give me an accurate translation of the inscription, to no avail. When I look at the workmanship it's hard to wrap my mind around calling it a 'souvenir', but then I'm used to selling 'gen-yew-wine Arizona soo-vee-neers' that were cranked out in China in the Walgreens where I work. Having a souvenir that's actually a work or art takes getting used to!

I get the feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time on this board. I have always loved the look and feel of a well-forged blade; holding something that has served as both a work of art and the thin edge between life and death for someone generates a visceral response.

For me, also, the evolution of weaponry is the evolution of man's society in microcosm. Nothing drives technology forward faster than warfare, and nothing displays the cutting edge of that technology like the weapons man weilds in defense of that society. It's a belief that makes a lot of people in this PC world we live in uncomfortable, but perhaps I'll find a few likeminded individuals here.

Thanks again for your help, I'm looking forward to the other translation!

Fenris

PS -- if any of you saw something like this for sale at that upcoming show in Boston, what sort of price would you expect to see? I'mj ust curious how good a buy I made!

ShayanMirza · 23rd January 2007, 08:43 PM

On the first line I can pick out a few words, but not all...The word Osman means Ottoman in English, if I didn't misread it. At least one of the words is Persian.

The bottom line says "there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfaqaar"

لا فتى إلا على لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار

The reference to Ali and Zulfaqaar indicate Shi'a origin.

ShayanMirza · 23rd January 2007, 11:08 PM

Just a note: yaadgaar can mean souvenir, but it also can mean memorial or monument, so it probably wasn't made as a souvenir but as a commemoration.

FenrisWolf · 24th January 2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShayanMirza

Just a note: yaadgaar can mean souvenir, but it also can mean memorial or monument, so it probably wasn't made as a souvenir but as a commemoration.

Does anyone know enough Turkish history to suggest why 1933 would have been a significant date for a memorial blade? I did a search on Wikipedia, and other than it being towards the end of a period of extensive cultural and political reform, the only significant event I found was a state visit by the king of Yugoslavia.

ShayanMirza · 24th January 2007, 02:27 AM

Personally, it looks more like 935 to me, but even then the blade may be commemorating a significant event in Erzincan that wouldn't necessarily be a national event.

Zifir · 24th January 2007, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShayanMirza

On the first line I can pick out a few words, but not all...The word Osman means Ottoman in English, if I didn't misread it. At least one of the words is Persian.

The bottom line says "there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfaqaar"

لا فتى إلا على لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار

The reference to Ali and Zulfaqaar indicate Shi'a origin.

The first line can be read as:

Her belayı def' eyleye evvel Osman Perverdigar

Which can be translated as:

May God fırst protect you from all calamities, Osman (probably the name of the owner)

This is my best shot, since there are some points which need to be explained or I am not very sure about. Without the phrase "evvel Osman" this a very well known formula (or prayer) for Alevis. But as far as I know Alevis never use the name "Osman" since they don't accept the Caliphate of Osman. However I can't claim to have a deep knowledge about different groups among Alevis. Maybe it is totally legitimate for some of them to use this name.

I don't have any objections to the translation of the second line.

ShayanMirza · 24th January 2007, 06:11 PM

Thanks for the correction, Zifir! I was having a load of trouble with the first line since I only recognised two words and the name Osman. I don't know Turkish, but I'd really like to learn since it's a fun and very useful language from Anatolia to Central Asia. Unfortunately it isn't offered at my school

21st January 2007, 07:44 AM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Help with Arabic/Farsi translations? Hello to the board! I'm new here, and while I've been collecting ethnographic edged weapons for a while, my knowledge of them is fairly limited. I know enough to be able to usually figure out roughly where something originated (Africa, Asia, India, eic.), and I've managed to pick up a bit more specific knowledge about individual pieces, but for the most part I can't claim more than a layman's "Ooh! Pretty!" knowledge of blades. That being said, I have several pieces in my collection I'd love to learn more about. One is a small dagger from the Middle East, probably Persia, with a plain hilt and a beautifully worked blade, complete with two inscriptions, one in Arabic and the other in (I think) Farsi. I took it into a local middle eastern deli, and they put me in touch with an Iranian gentlemen gave me a very rough translation. He said one side was a passage from the Koran, the other was an inscription from the smith, something along the lines of 'made in the manner of the sword of the prophet' or words to that effect, and what I think is a date. IF it is, and it's in the Arabic calender, it would date the blade to the 1500s. Anyway, here are some pics: The other dagger I know much less about, other than to suspect it to be Italian, 18th or 19th century, and intended for less than savory purposes. There's no inscription, but there is a brass proofmark in the blade with a signature resembling a stylized man's face with mustache and goatee cut into the metal. Any help with translating the inscriptions and/or identifying these two daggers will be greatly appreciated! And afterwards, if people don't object too strenuously, I have others I'd like to get people's opinions on (which is really a thinly veiled way of gloating and saying 'look what I got!', but you all knew that, right?) Thanks in advance, Fenris

22nd January 2007, 01:27 AM	#8
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	New pics of inscriptions! I managed to get decent pics of the inscriptions: You can see what I thought was a date at the left of the second one. Thanks in advance for help with this! Fenris

23rd January 2007, 08:43 PM	#11
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	On the first line I can pick out a few words, but not all...The word Osman means Ottoman in English, if I didn't misread it. At least one of the words is Persian. The bottom line says "there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfaqaar" لا فتى إلا على لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار The reference to Ali and Zulfaqaar indicate Shi'a origin. Attached Images Last edited by ShayanMirza; 23rd January 2007 at 09:12 PM.

21st January 2007, 05:01 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Fenris, Pictures taken without flash would make it much easier to read the script; try shooting outside on a bright overcast day. Your first piece has a handle that resembles a Bichaq's ; the second piece does, as you say, look like its intentions are less than savory; well put. Welcome! Rick

21st January 2007, 09:42 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	I cannot help with the inscription, but the first one looks like coming out of Trebizond - there were a few threads on daggers from this area. Teodor

22nd January 2007, 12:13 AM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	This dagger is certainly Eastern Turkish, probably from the Black Sea region as noted above. There are a number of forum members who will be happy to read the inscription for you-- speaking strictly for myself I would ask that the photos be closeups and very clear, as the characters can be easily misunderstood if the detail is not precise. Dating-- these are typically late 19th or early 20th century. Given the photos I can see no reason to suggest that this one dates any earlier. Ham

22nd January 2007, 01:01 AM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Fenris, I think I see the numbers 933. The Turks had converted to our calendar in the late 19th century. I think this date is in fact 1933 C.E. . Hope this helps. Jeff

22nd January 2007, 12:43 PM	#9
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I agree with Jeff that the date is probably 1933 since I could not see any arabic date on the inscription. In the second picture at the bottom there is a C. 88 (if I am correct, but I have no idea what it means or why the knifemaker chose to wrote it in half latin and half arabic) I will try to give a meaningful translation of the first inscription later but the knife was made in Erzincan (or Arzincan if you wish) a city in eastern Anatolia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzincan Thus the second picture is 933 Erzincan -------- Yadigar (souvenir) C.88 the knifemaker's signature

23rd January 2007, 11:08 PM	#12
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Just a note: yaadgaar can mean souvenir, but it also can mean memorial or monument, so it probably wasn't made as a souvenir but as a commemoration.

24th January 2007, 02:27 AM	#14
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Personally, it looks more like 935 to me, but even then the blade may be commemorating a significant event in Erzincan that wouldn't necessarily be a national event.

24th January 2007, 06:11 PM	#16
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Thanks for the correction, Zifir! I was having a load of trouble with the first line since I only recognised two words and the name Osman. I don't know Turkish, but I'd really like to learn since it's a fun and very useful language from Anatolia to Central Asia. Unfortunately it isn't offered at my school