Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by David

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature.

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary . But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists". [/QUOTE]

My comment on Innocents were teasing.

i doubt if many arms collecters & dealers or indeed that many human biengs in the western world are realy that innocent.

Religous upbringing can leave some recognisable traits & beliefs on occasion though, despite ones rebelion against them.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Spiral did you not read the post immediately preceding my post with the 3 pics

Quote from thread

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

yes I did, its an excelent piece of research , I though I said that? or perhaps that was one of your other posts?

I took it as your could see how Esmeralda could be seen as a suitable subject for a occult knife.

But I know realise your full point.

Thankyou.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra!

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys

All best regards,
Jim

I agrre opinions are worthwhile in a discusian, I just recognise in science they are & law they are niether empirical evidence nor expert oppinion. {in US legal terms.}

I agree the point about Esmerelda could have some validity. As I stated to Katana earlier post.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri
Emanuel

thankyou for trying Manolo, & the photo, as I said earlier the most valid points of evidence would come from 19th century cast figural handled pieces.

as intresting as the dagger you show is it clearly is not a cast figural handled 19th century piece. So even if i could make out the scabbard figures is still not the type of knife in questian. I realise you recognise & mentian that.

I have a figurative handled stassknive by Louen, Norways most estemed church carver & 19th century knife maker, but although , the scabbard would illustrate my point yet again , I havent shown it as evidence as the handle although figual is carved hollywood , not cast.

i look forward to your pictures of 19th century cast figural handles.

Not all the animals behead in Nepal are tied & held, some are certanly particularily bulls to allow the kukri or kora aim to fall between the vertabrae rather than a direct hit in the middle of the bone. {Ive been there & seen it done.}

But if you watch muslims slaughter animals for Halal meat they just do the animals throat , some can even do it while petting the animal to lull it into a sense of security & or treat it with respect {Ive seen this done too, intrestingly enough in Sunny England by a Tunisean who has regard & respect for the animals he raises & kills to feed his family.}


The picture does show John Powell & an unamed forumite from here who JP wouldnt sell that kukri to for $12000, on principle because he thought it should come to an approriate home for such a piece for, a tiny fraction of that sum. {I do have written permision to post that forumites photo & the price discussed is already in the public domain on the internet.}

its just a private joke realy.


Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by wolviex

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too . No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy.

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.


Spiral

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by wolviex

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary . But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a vicious dog in your home, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your vicious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood. Even Margaret Mead made some mistakes.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

Tim I am sure as you say you have made many mistakes in your purchases, as you say I have seen you post some here & if you read "The art of Rhinocerous horn carving in China " by Jan Chapman you may possibly spot another couple you havent yet realised.

I must have been much luckier to date or do more reserch on most things I collect. {The first year or two of my arms collecting I made varois errors due to lack of expierence , knowledge & research etc. that what taught me the value of research, evidence & expert oppinion rather than "joe bloggs" opinion.


If this ever turns out to be a typicle example of a non occult 19th centry piece, with its cast figural handle & scabbard, I will still be delighted to keep it. It is the piece itself I appreciate.

i doubt if I will ever see another such piece. This thread prooves its rarity.



& After all I picked it up for a mere 12 portions of fish & chips & curry sauce. its amazing what one can find for peanuts sometimes.

I wonder if you could cast & chase a one piece scabbard like that? using 19th century technology? or is 19th century "fracklin mint" rather tricker if you put your proffesional head on?

I worked in casting as a youth, before deciding to move on to other feilds that I find more, spiritualy,intelectualy & indeed socialy rewarding.

But I did enjoy it at the time.


Spiral

[Emanuel]

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.

I work in fields that fully understand human projection, transferance etc. & although Gestalt in nature apprecite that evidence is usefull when looking at peoples opinions especialy those that have roots to thier childhoods.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a viscious dog, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your viscious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

Good & valid points Bill.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel

An intresting piece Manolo, thankyou.

Spiral

[fenlander]

Originally Posted by David

Give me a day or so to look through my library.

Thanks that is helpful of you.
This is becoming more and more interesting. I always thought inverted crosses were satanic. Like the inverted pentacle is for black magic. Never even heard of the cross of St Peter. Very interesting. I'm looking for more of an introductory book and from a respected author in the field.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by spiral

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.Spiral

Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

Certanly Bill,

Your correct, I recognise that what I said about internet communication is a true for me as it is for others.

I must admit I was also partialy bieng rather tounge in cheek playing a debating card as well, as I took Davids comment as realy bieng in the same spirit.

Humour is good. Dry humour is better!

Spiral

[katana]

[QUOTE=spiral]

Originally Posted by David

. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

Spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

[Tim Simmons]

I feel compelled to show how these classical and occult images are still in use today on prestige artifacts. These two could collect sacrificial blood except they were made for the worshipful company of lightmongers. Casting, chasing tools and methods have not changed in millennium. As for a spirtual quest I find just picking my feet enough .

[katana]

I believe that ‘Satanic’ daggers exist but I have a few observations….

Firstly, a dagger used in Black Magic Rites would surely be greatly revered by the practitioners. As the dagger is continually used wouldn’t the ‘believers’ feel that the dagger would increasingly become imbued with ‘evil power’ and its significance increase? If so, why would these daggers be available to collectors? These could be likened to ‘Religious Relics’ …..afterall Satanism IS a RELIGION in true context.

Secondly, many Occult sects evolved late 17th early 18th Century…..as has been pointed out …usually involving the richer sections of society. However, few were truly ‘Satanic’ , most involved themselves in drunkenness, drug taking and sexual orgies. Practices that were considered anti-Christian. Bearing in mind the power of the Church, its wealth and its involvement in politics…..these people were the ‘back-lash’ to the overwhelming control of the Church. A ‘Rock and Roll’ club for Gentlemen . Their actions more ‘Animalistic’ (and Anti-establishmental) than ‘Satanic’ and , IMHO any daggers attributed to this type of ‘club’…..should be viewed in the same context of ‘Freemason Paraphernalia.'

Thirdly, I pointed out the symbolism of the crucifix hilt, and you (Spiral) feel the cross guard is a functional necessity. Why? If the dagger is more symbolic and used in a Ritual (i.e. like a Phurba) …the guard is unnecessary. If the dagger is used in sacrifice…..the ‘offering’ would be usually incapacitated (bound or drugged) the wielder of the dagger could ‘pick his spot’ avoiding bone etc . If the throat is cut….the more usual method of sacrifice , the cross guard of a dagger would ‘get in the way’ ….? Surely Satanists would avoid having such a prominent Christian Symbol involved with their Rituals ?



I think that your dagger is a lovely piece of work. The casting is clean and crisp, the blade looks great……I still maintain that this is a themed dagger , if endowed with symbolism…I believe that it is a ‘political statement’ about the Church /Society at that time. I am not a Religious person but I do consider myself ‘Spiritual’, I am not in denial about the possibilities of ‘true’ satanistic daggers. This is a case of Yin and Yang………..if there is a good God there must be an equally powerful ‘evil’ god….such is the belief systems of Man kind since humanity ‘found’ religion.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Manolo

....all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
try copying and pasting on this translation site ...


http://world.altavista.com/tr


Regards David

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by spiral

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

[Emanuel]

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way?

The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong...
Emanuel

[katana]

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

[Tim Simmons]

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

[spiral]

[QUOTE=katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

Subtle enough that the brotherhood of ethnographic arms collectors can not see it.


Wikpedia had all their satanist stuff rewritten as well. There all misunderstood nice boys realy! its posted on there by any one who wishes! & gets thier friends to agree its hardly a serious political resource.

& guess what the The original Alexandrian Origen reports can not be found, it is a mere reinterpritation of them recycled. The were lost centurys ago.

Spiral

[Andrew]

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by wolviex

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

I understood your post.

I have to ignore you "evidence" though whether yours or Jims as possibly incorrect.

After all niether of you can even remeber where you saw it. So that leaves room for error as perhaps you cant remeber quite exactly correctly what you have seen before.

If you ever remeber it please post here or PM me if its in a few years time. I always appreciate evidence.

Thankyou.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Empircal evidence shown by me , so far demonstrates that European figural knives of the 19th century are veiwed handle upright.

Satanic black masses are about inverting the Christian mass, even the words are recounted backwards. this is well recorded.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy .}



But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?


Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

I respect your descion.

In life I try to communicte & indeed deal with each individul in the manner or type of speach or attitiude shown to me.

This can assist some founding freindships & destroy jobs. {"supierors" dont always like it.}

Always tricker via internet as we already know.

Easier in a pub with a pint.

Take care,

Spiral