1908/ 1912 Pattern British Army Cavalry Sword

[katana]

Again I appologise....since this is not truly an ethnographic weapon....but could be of interest...
This Cavalry Sabre has a blade length of approx. 33'' (84 cms), chequered strap, greyshark/Ray skin handle with (possibly) silver wire, and a pierced "honeysuckle" hilt.
I think this is a 1912 version. The blade is embossed with George V cypher, a crown with 'sunrays', a coat of arms (which is obscured in places) and some foliage. It is proof marked and has the number 2887 stamped on the spine. No makers mark.
The scabbard is a 'Sam Brown' service issue in brown leather.

This sword is undoubtably a 'thrusting' weapon, light, nicely balanced and good arm/blade alignment in a forward strike.

.......and now the point of this thread....the hilt has been cut down.... effectively the 'knuckle bow' has been removed. This must have been done very early in its life, the 'patina' of the cut edge is consistant with the rest of the hilt. Was there a practical reason for this? I understand that the hilts sometimes 'snagged' on clothing.
The overall condition, scabbard etc suggests that this sword saw active service during WW!, and that this 'modification' was a possible 'improvement'. Alternatively the hilt may have been damaged during service (shrapnel? bullet?) or more likely ...accidental.

Any ideas or suggestions

[Tim Simmons]

Not an area I know much about but I am sure this is a earlier pattern sword than the one you mention. Maybe not even a cavalry sword. Still in use at the time.

[Tim Simmons]

It appears to be an 1897 infantry officers sword.

[fernando]

Hi Katana
Until better opinnion, this is a George V officers pattern 1897 sword.
I am looking at an Andrew Bottomley catalogue, with a couple of these. A most similar one, with same guard design and scabbard model, blade shape and length, etc, is quoted to have being made by John Dixon and Sons Shefield.
The large basket guard is nickle plated, by the way.
The knuckle guard is rather large, as being the tapering prolongation of the basket. Could it be that it was extracted with the purpose of modifying the sword for fencing ? Just my fantasy.
Regards
fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It appears to be an 1897 infantry officers sword.

Sorry Tim, i didn't check you had already sent your second post. Yours is already a better opinnion.
regards

[katana]

Thankyou Gentleman,
as you can tell British swords are not my forte .
But this 'caught' my eye....I like the idea that a sword may have a story..or two. This seems to fit the 'criteria'.....I feel that the sword hilt was 'modified' to improve its serviceability in the 'field'. But that is just my assumption. I do know that these swords were carried and, sometimes used during the conflict of WW1. I think I am right in saying that the last British Cavalry charge occurred during that terrible war.

Thanks Fernando, I will do some checking on the possible maker....greatly appreciate you finding this out.

As regards 'fencing'.........it certainly has that feel........I've been lunging, sword in hand..to the 'chorus' of 'en guarde' for several minutes......sad..but true

[fernando]

Originally Posted by katana

As regards 'fencing'.........it certainly has that feel........I've been lunging, sword in hand..to the 'chorus' of 'en guarde' for several minutes......sad..but true

Well, that falls again into the fantasy area. Fantasies are vital for one's mental health.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Katana,
As correctly observed by Tim and Fernando, this is a British M1897 sword for Infantry officers, and remained in use for dress occasions through present day. If possible get a close up of the brass 'proof mark' on the blade and this might have a clue to either maker or outfitter. It seems Wilkinson, who made the larger numbers of these often numerically stamped blades, however it seems they would have the name on the blade.

A few notes on British cavalry charges, a favorite subject of mine from many years ago, taken from "Charge to Glory" by James Lunt (1976, p.1)...

"...the charge will always remain the thing in which it will be the cavalrymans pride to die sword in hand".
(Cavalry Journal, 1909)

The author dedicated this book to his friend, Captain Arthur Sandeman, of the Central India Horse, who died March 21,1942 leading the last mounted charge in the history of British cavalry at Toungoo, Burma. He was leading a mounted contingent of the Burma Frontier Force in the defense of areas around Toungoo, the main base for the famed "Flying Tigers" (American Volunteer Group"), when they rode into an ambush. Sandeman instinctively raised his sword and over sixty Indian sowars with him, mostly Sikhs, charged with him into eternity.

You are correct that there was considerable use of swords in WWI, by all countries' forces and such use continued in various degree into WWII.

General George Patton, always the true cavalryman, designed his M1913 cavalry sabre after the straight bladed British M1908, also adding the huge bowl type guard. As the cavalry units were finally dismounted and consigned to being mechanized forces, the use of the sword in combat was virtually finished. Describing these times, General Patton claimed that "...the saddest moment in his life came when he stood at attention, weeping, as his cavalry regiment marched past to stack thier sabres for the last time". ("The Long Gray Line", Atkinson, p.58).

After this, many of the huge hilted sabres were cut down into combat knives at the outset of WWII, with the huge guards providing necessary hand protection in close combat. These became known as 'Anderson stillettos' (for the firm who performed these conversions).

Just a few notes and some unbridled romanticism that seem well placed in response to your views and enjoyment of this sword. While uncertain why the hilt on this has been so modified , there has clearly often been distinct purpose for doing so, however odd it must seem to us now.

In one last note concerning these brave cavalrymen, I once had the honor of visiting a British Brigadier who had served on the Northwest Frontier of India, leading one of the last cavalry charges in those regions near the Khyber Pass in the early 1930's, Brig. Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers", Presidio, 1988).
As he talked, showing me the M1912 cavalry sabre he had carried in the charge, he would constantly and wistfully glance at the portrait of his beloved charger, his horse Eagerheart.
We spoke of a very close friend of his, also a cavalryman with the 3rd Indian cavalry, who also served in Burma during WWII, later becoming a General, Major Gen. S.Shahid Hamid. In his book "So They Rode and Fought", General Hamid has inscribed,
"A sharp talwar or sabre, a sharp lance, a sharp pair of spurs,
and above all a good heart"

I will never forget that day, and just wanted to share some of the passion that makes our collecting and study of these weapons so compelling.

All the best,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Great and informative post!

I have a 1912 officers model. It is supposed to be an outstanding sword, but to me it feels a bit clumsy, though probably was OK for mounted thrusting use. Once I saw a Indian army version, with a slightly shorter and much lighter blade (troopers issue) and it felt much better. The German WKC rendition also felt better in my hands - It too, had a shorter blade.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Chris,
Thank you so much!
I agree, these huge swords certainly were a bit awkward, though there was a lot of fanciful hyperbole about them being the ultimate sword design etc. I had a M1908 once that was great as it was entirely leather covered, hilt and all. It felt heavy and sturdy etc, but as you note, awkward for any sort of movement.
Thanks again,
All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim,
thank you for your 'colourful' (colorful ) input , do you know whether hilts were modified for 'field use' ? The cut across the guard has been done very neatly and where it would have connected to the pommel is so well done, that you would never know that it was cut at this point at all. It must have been done a very long time ago ....I am sure it isn't a recent adaption.

[katana]

Hi Jim,
I forgot to mention .....the 'proof' mark has the word 'PROVED' arcing around the curve of the circular mark ....in between the P and D is stamped a shape similar to pic below, it is quite worn.....obviously looks to be a crown..

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Katana,
You bet! Couldn't resist reminiscing...colourfully !!!

Thanks for the update on the 'proofmark'. This presents some interesting possibilities with the crown shown. These 'proofmarks' eventually became more of a badge than distinctly indicating a maker during the advent of commercialism in the latter 19th c. It seems that they often reflected a retailer or outfitter, not necessarily the maker of the blade.
The crown was used in this 'proof' cartouche only by two firms; one being Walter Locke & Co. of Calcutta, the other being the famed gunmaking firm J.Manton & Co. of Calcutta. Although gunmakers, the Manton Co. were established from 1825, and by the early 20th century very active and well known outfitters, supplying British officers. I once owned a beautiful British officers 'mameluke' sabre by Manton of Calcutta.

Since King George V reigned from 1910-36 , and you indicate that cypher on the sword, we can presume service in that period. The Manton firm was in business well through that period as well, I am uncertain about the Walter Locke Co.

Swords in use while in service militarily would normally not have been modified outside regulations or orders, however, the British in Indian service do not seem to have held as closely to strict regulations while in the field. It would appear that there were some concerns about the M1897 swords (modified officially from the M1895 by having the inside edge of the hilt turned down to prevent chafing the tunics). In "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" (C.Ffoulkes & C. Hopkinson, 1938, Cambridge, p.65) the authors note that "...the one obvious drawback to this sword is the width of the handguard, which, like the Scottish broadsword, interferes with the free movement of the right hand".

As noted in my earlier post, there were of course many years of campaigns and combat during the British Raj well into the 20th century, primarily it seems throughout the Northwest Frontier. It would seem quite plausible that an infantry officer may have had such alteration completed with his sword for combat use, and there were many native armourers available in local regions who would have accomplished such alteration at the request of the officer.
Many British swords were fitted with native blades resulting in interesting hybrid variations, and conversely Indian hilts are often found mounted with British sabre blades, especially the M1796 light cavalry blades.

As always, these often humble looking pieces do have stories to tell!!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Much appreciated Jim Thank you