Snaphaunce pistol - Origin not clear

fernando · 27th October 2006, 08:44 PM

I bought this pistol in a street market ... no label and no ID.
The stock butt is very particular, but i don't know for sure where it comes from. I have been thinking it is Moroccan, possibly (wishfully) 19th century.
Any better oppinion or actual knowledge ?.
Thanks in advance
fernando

Philip · 28th October 2006, 06:02 AM

It is probably Moroccan. That type of snaphaunce lock is typical of that area (Algeria and regions to the east used "miquelet" locks of Spanish design, those characterized by a large external V-shaped mainspring and an "L" shaped combined pan cover and "steel". The snaphaunce of Morocco is derived from north European (Dutch and English) prototypes of the 17th cent.

The flare on the muzzle, and the almost circular outline of the trigger guard, are carried over from the familiar Moroccan long muskets, "moukahla".

I would recommend S. James Gooding's "The Snaphance Muskets of al-Maghreb al-Aqsa" in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, no. 3 (August 1996), pp 87-93.

The subject is also addressed, with illus. of exceptional examples, in Dr. Robert Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD IN THE TAREQ RAJAB MUSEUM, KUWAIT, London/NY: I. B. Tauris, 1995.

fernando · 28th October 2006, 12:18 PM

Thank you so much Philip, for the excelent information.
Are the pictures clear enough to guess an age on this piece ? Could it be prior to the 20th century ?

Nagawarrior · 28th October 2006, 10:22 PM

Here is a picture of the lock of my Muqakhla. The musket or Muqakhla of the Kabyle tribesmen. Of a form based upon English and Dutch guns of the late sixteenth century.

Philip · 29th October 2006, 06:58 AM

Fernando,
Yes, it could be 19th cent, as well as early 20th. During the period in question, styles didn't change appreciably so without inscriptions, assigning exact date is difficult.

Vejo que vive em Portugal. Esta vos um colecionador de armas de fogo?

I am looking for reference books on the history of the Portuguese espingarda da mecha, the type that was introduced to the Far East during the Age of the Discoveries. Rainer Daehnhardt's book, ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA is good, I have it but would like to read the research of other authors on this subject, and also see more pictures of these guns which are preserved in Portuguese museums. Do you know of any additional titles?

Recently I have become aware of Korean, Burmese, southern Chinese, and Vietnamese versions of these matchlock muskets. All are of Indo-Portuguese mechanism, as Daehnhardt calls it, but he does not address these additional types of guns in his book.

fernando · 29th October 2006, 07:29 PM

Hi Philip
Obrigado pela sua mensagem.
I have managed to gather a couple random old firearms, but i am a very light weight collector, without a minimum background.
I may however sugest that books or images of Portuguese weapons covering such period are scarce, such as the weapons themselves (except for artillery ).
Even in Portuguese museums you don't find so many of them ... you would quicker find them in private collections out there

.
I wouldn't know of any publications on this Indo-Portuguese matchlock theme, except for ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA. I guess that the author only
mentioned and showed pictures of determined examples, as he wanted to tipify their basic evolution, according to the scheme he has built up.
This guy would be the first to have most possible important variations, among his 5000 pieces arms collection.
Maybe the examples you recently heard about, don't define basic variants, other than "Indo Portuguese" or "Cingalo Portuguese" influenced, the two main sources where this system spread from ... but you shouldn't take me seriously.
A bit off topic, i have scanned a page of Bulletin of Antique Arms Society, from which Rainer Daehnhardt is President, with pictures of a Cingalo Portuguese specimen.
I will try and find some other authors or images in this Indo Portuguese matchlock subject, and will surely let you know.
Kind regards
fernando
ps
I am trying to tame my scanner.

Philip · 30th October 2006, 05:50 AM

Hi, Fernando
Thanks for scanning the relevant page from the article. The example illustrated is very rare (firearms from Sri Lanka are few and far between). I find the butt stock shape significant because the profile is virtually identical to that of the guns from the Malay peninsula, and the southern part of Vietnam. Note also that the main spring (mola real) of the lock is completely inside and not externally visible. Also an unusual feature both for Portuguese and Oriental "snapping" matchlocks. You most often see the internal spring on some Japanese specimens, but they are not common.

FenrisWolf · 28th January 2007, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you so much Philip, for the excelent information.
Are the pictures clear enough to guess an age on this piece ? Could it be prior to the 20th century ?

Looking closely at the pistol, I'd guess that the lock and barrel are from an earlier piece, and this is a replacement stock. I say that because of the quality of the metalwork on the lock itself, and the poor fit of the inletting into the stock. What you can see of the barrel is alos of finer quality than the workmanship surrounding it. So even if the pistol is 20th cetnury (which I doubt), I think the odds are that the works are older, possibly much older.

Fenris

fernando · 28th January 2007, 08:31 PM

Hi Fenris,
Thank you for your coments.
I can see your point.
Here are some more pictures of the barrel and other details.
You will notice the dark stains in the wood, around the screws and near the barrel. Would this mean this stock has seen some use, even having been a replacement to the original one ?
kind regards
fernando

FenrisWolf · 29th January 2007, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Fenris,
Thank you for your coments.
I can see your point.
Here are some more pictures of the barrel and other details.
You will notice the dark stains in the wood, around the screws and near the barrel. Would this mean this stock has seen some use, even having been a replacement to the original one ?
kind regards
fernando

Those darkened holes around the bolt heads bring up an entirely different possibility. Given the reasonably good fit of the inletting around the barrel and tang (as revealed in the new pictures), it's probably the lock that is the replacement, not the stock. Those large holes are evidence that originally there were bolts with much larger heads inletted into the stock. The snaphance locks changed very little over their lifespan, so it's not surprising that a gunsmith was able to replace an earlier one with a new lock. Snaphance locks, while a significant improvement over the much more fragile wheellock mechanisms, are still needlessly complex, with something like three times as many moving parts as a true flintlock. Given the number of weapons being converted from snaphance to flintlock, the gunsmith might easily have had a spare lock lying around, making it cheaper to replace the old lock than to repair it. Given the evidence of the bolt head inlets along with the rough fit of the inletting around the lock, that would be my guess.

PompeusMagnus · 9th October 2010, 07:50 PM

I can't find any information about Portuguese arsenal Fernando :S
I went to the Military Museum of Lisbon and there wasn't many information :S
Can you suggest a place where i might find book's of Portuguese arsenal ?
Thank you

fernando · 10th October 2010, 05:59 PM

Hi Pompeius, welcome to the forum.
I don't know of any book dedicated to the Portuguese arsenal. We can read several allusions to its existence and production in books dedicated to weapons or the Discoveries period, but not an exclusive publication ... at least in my case. We know that the arsenal, during its long history, has had different names and was placed in various locations; one of them being precisely where the Lisbon Military Museum is now situated.
You may visit the shop of arms collector and historian Rainer Daenhardt in Cascais, only open on Sarturdays, and ask him for any books including some data in the Portuguese arsenal.
You may as well buy him a copy of "Homens Espadas e Tomates", written by Daenhardt himself, which contains some quotations to the arsenal, concerning artillery.
Te shop, which contains lots of antique arms for sale, is called Sala das Armas and is situated in Rua Visconde da Luz, 9.
All the best.

Matchlock · 12th May 2012, 05:09 PM

Hi 'Nando,

As snapha(u)nce arms are not exactly my main subject, it was sadly only now that I found your thread.

I am quite sure that your ball-butted or pear-shaped butt pistol (puffer) is of English origin, ca. 1600 to early 17th c., in its main parts.
The shape and decoration of the barrel tang and the fore end bands denote that they are later working-time alterations the decorations of which show some Oriental or Southern Euroean influence.

English pistols of the Late Renaissance period are extremely rare to find in unaltered condition.

I attach a similar but unaltered English specimen of a 'puffer', the trigger and guard missing, in the Doges Palace, Venice, and an image of another in an unknown collection.
For stylistic comparison, the one at the bottom is also English but of the Cromwellian period, ca. 1645, also in the Palazzo Ducale..

For more on snapha(u)nces, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14112

Best, my friend,
Michl

fernando · 12th May 2012, 05:17 PM

That's great Michl,
... Better late than never.

Thanks a lot

Matchlock · 12th May 2012, 05:25 PM

The barrel, apart from the tang, still is of characteristically English or Scottish multi-staged form but the whole pistol must have been sold to and altered for the South Eastern market, especially all its mounts; so Morocco seems quite a good guess.

m

Matchlock · 5th July 2012, 08:51 PM

More on snaphance weapons:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=snaphance

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=snaphance

m

rickystl · 7th July 2012, 04:58 PM

Hi Fernando!! Can't believe I missed this Thread. Agree with you and others that this pistol is Moroccan. As mentioned, the stock style resembles an English "Puffer". The lock is typical Moroccan - copied in the English style. The barrel - ? All these varieties make this an interesting pistol. The Moroccan pistols are much less common than the long guns. Nice piece.
At the recent Timonium Action there was a Moroccan Snaphaunce pistol listed. Now I wish I had bid on that. It went for a fair price.

Rick.

27th October 2006, 08:44 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Snaphaunce pistol - Origin not clear I bought this pistol in a street market ... no label and no ID. The stock butt is very particular, but i don't know for sure where it comes from. I have been thinking it is Moroccan, possibly (wishfully) 19th century. Any better oppinion or actual knowledge ?. Thanks in advance fernando Attached Images

29th October 2006, 07:29 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip Obrigado pela sua mensagem. I have managed to gather a couple random old firearms, but i am a very light weight collector, without a minimum background. I may however sugest that books or images of Portuguese weapons covering such period are scarce, such as the weapons themselves (except for artillery ). Even in Portuguese museums you don't find so many of them ... you would quicker find them in private collections out there . I wouldn't know of any publications on this Indo-Portuguese matchlock theme, except for ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA. I guess that the author only mentioned and showed pictures of determined examples, as he wanted to tipify their basic evolution, according to the scheme he has built up. This guy would be the first to have most possible important variations, among his 5000 pieces arms collection. Maybe the examples you recently heard about, don't define basic variants, other than "Indo Portuguese" or "Cingalo Portuguese" influenced, the two main sources where this system spread from ... but you shouldn't take me seriously. A bit off topic, i have scanned a page of Bulletin of Antique Arms Society, from which Rainer Daehnhardt is President, with pictures of a Cingalo Portuguese specimen. I will try and find some other authors or images in this Indo Portuguese matchlock subject, and will surely let you know. Kind regards fernando ps I am trying to tame my scanner. Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 29th October 2006 at 08:50 PM.

30th October 2006, 05:50 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Interesting Ceylonese gun Hi, Fernando Thanks for scanning the relevant page from the article. The example illustrated is very rare (firearms from Sri Lanka are few and far between). I find the butt stock shape significant because the profile is virtually identical to that of the guns from the Malay peninsula, and the southern part of Vietnam. Note also that the main spring (mola real) of the lock is completely inside and not externally visible. Also an unusual feature both for Portuguese and Oriental "snapping" matchlocks. You most often see the internal spring on some Japanese specimens, but they are not common.

28th January 2007, 08:31 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Fenris, Thank you for your coments. I can see your point. Here are some more pictures of the barrel and other details. You will notice the dark stains in the wood, around the screws and near the barrel. Would this mean this stock has seen some use, even having been a replacement to the original one ? kind regards fernando Attached Images

10th October 2010, 05:59 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Pompeius, welcome to the forum. I don't know of any book dedicated to the Portuguese arsenal. We can read several allusions to its existence and production in books dedicated to weapons or the Discoveries period, but not an exclusive publication ... at least in my case. We know that the arsenal, during its long history, has had different names and was placed in various locations; one of them being precisely where the Lisbon Military Museum is now situated. You may visit the shop of arms collector and historian Rainer Daenhardt in Cascais, only open on Sarturdays, and ask him for any books including some data in the Portuguese arsenal. You may as well buy him a copy of "Homens Espadas e Tomates", written by Daenhardt himself, which contains some quotations to the arsenal, concerning artillery. Te shop, which contains lots of antique arms for sale, is called Sala das Armas and is situated in Rua Visconde da Luz, 9. All the best. Last edited by fernando; 10th October 2010 at 06:49 PM.

28th October 2006, 06:02 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	It is probably Moroccan. That type of snaphaunce lock is typical of that area (Algeria and regions to the east used "miquelet" locks of Spanish design, those characterized by a large external V-shaped mainspring and an "L" shaped combined pan cover and "steel". The snaphaunce of Morocco is derived from north European (Dutch and English) prototypes of the 17th cent. The flare on the muzzle, and the almost circular outline of the trigger guard, are carried over from the familiar Moroccan long muskets, "moukahla". I would recommend S. James Gooding's "The Snaphance Muskets of al-Maghreb al-Aqsa" in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, no. 3 (August 1996), pp 87-93. The subject is also addressed, with illus. of exceptional examples, in Dr. Robert Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD IN THE TAREQ RAJAB MUSEUM, KUWAIT, London/NY: I. B. Tauris, 1995.

28th October 2006, 12:18 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much Philip, for the excelent information. Are the pictures clear enough to guess an age on this piece ? Could it be prior to the 20th century ?

28th October 2006, 10:22 PM	#4
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Here is a picture of the lock of my Muqakhla. The musket or Muqakhla of the Kabyle tribesmen. Of a form based upon English and Dutch guns of the late sixteenth century.

29th October 2006, 06:58 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fernando, Yes, it could be 19th cent, as well as early 20th. During the period in question, styles didn't change appreciably so without inscriptions, assigning exact date is difficult. Vejo que vive em Portugal. Esta vos um colecionador de armas de fogo? I am looking for reference books on the history of the Portuguese espingarda da mecha, the type that was introduced to the Far East during the Age of the Discoveries. Rainer Daehnhardt's book, ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA is good, I have it but would like to read the research of other authors on this subject, and also see more pictures of these guns which are preserved in Portuguese museums. Do you know of any additional titles? Recently I have become aware of Korean, Burmese, southern Chinese, and Vietnamese versions of these matchlock muskets. All are of Indo-Portuguese mechanism, as Daehnhardt calls it, but he does not address these additional types of guns in his book.

9th October 2010, 07:50 PM	#11
PompeusMagnus Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Portugal Posts: 1	I can't find any information about Portuguese arsenal Fernando :S I went to the Military Museum of Lisbon and there wasn't many information :S Can you suggest a place where i might find book's of Portuguese arsenal ? Thank you

12th May 2012, 05:09 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, As snapha(u)nce arms are not exactly my main subject, it was sadly only now that I found your thread. I am quite sure that your ball-butted or pear-shaped butt pistol (puffer) is of English origin, ca. 1600 to early 17th c., in its main parts. The shape and decoration of the barrel tang and the fore end bands denote that they are later working-time alterations the decorations of which show some Oriental or Southern Euroean influence. English pistols of the Late Renaissance period are extremely rare to find in unaltered condition. I attach a similar but unaltered English specimen of a 'puffer', the trigger and guard missing, in the Doges Palace, Venice, and an image of another in an unknown collection. For stylistic comparison, the one at the bottom is also English but of the Cromwellian period, ca. 1645, also in the Palazzo Ducale.. For more on snapha(u)nces, please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14112 Best, my friend, Michl Attached Images

12th May 2012, 05:17 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That's great Michl, ... Better late than never. Thanks a lot

12th May 2012, 05:25 PM	#15
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The barrel, apart from the tang, still is of characteristically English or Scottish multi-staged form but the whole pistol must have been sold to and altered for the South Eastern market, especially all its mounts; so Morocco seems quite a good guess. m

5th July 2012, 08:51 PM	#16
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More on snaphance weapons: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=snaphance http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=snaphance m

7th July 2012, 04:58 PM	#17
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Fernando!! Can't believe I missed this Thread. Agree with you and others that this pistol is Moroccan. As mentioned, the stock style resembles an English "Puffer". The lock is typical Moroccan - copied in the English style. The barrel - ? All these varieties make this an interesting pistol. The Moroccan pistols are much less common than the long guns. Nice piece. At the recent Timonium Action there was a Moroccan Snaphaunce pistol listed. Now I wish I had bid on that. It went for a fair price. Rick.