Karabela? Persian? Balkan?

eftihis · 27th September 2006, 10:38 AM

Hallo all, i have just seen the photos i attach in the great new book of Manoucher "arms and armor from Iran".
In the photos are swords that exist on Iranian museums and belong to the Zand era, (arround 1750, before the Quajar).
The similarities are obvious, and allthough there is no exactly the same swords, its elements exist in the swords of the photos.
Therefore it is for sure Persian, made during the Zand era.

Valjhun · 27th September 2006, 12:58 PM

I still think it likely an early Qajar with a shashka blade.

S.Al-Anizi · 27th September 2006, 02:00 PM

The blade has no markings that can tell if its persian, but it has a mark, the star, which says its not. The hilt is certainly qajar.

mavi1970 · 27th September 2006, 03:11 PM

Actually, karabela is also loosely translated in turkish also Ariel. kara for black and bela for pain/annoyance/giving or making trouble. So karabela is just not a loose translation in Italian. How it applies i dont know, just my 2 cents worth. but nice sword either way.

Rivkin · 27th September 2006, 04:20 PM

It is possible that both blade and hilt are kadjar. The star symbol actually appears in Azerbaijan, both Persian and independent; here one can see a quadara with Qajar coins, making persian attribution easy. Again one might speculate that the blade is from somewhere else, but I believe it is a local Iranian (Azerbaijani ?) production:
http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1170
Slightly more modern:
http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=135

S.Al-Anizi · 27th September 2006, 04:58 PM

Interesting find rivkin, this says that the blade could be Persian then.

ham · 1st October 2006, 07:52 PM

Gentlemen,

The hilt of the sword is late Qajar, the blade is a Caucasian, probably Amuzgi made, copy of a Persian saber blade. This type is covered in Elgood Arabian Arms.
The name 'karabela' may or may not derive from Turkish. Both Elgood and Pinchot argue for the city of Karbala, see Elgood Arabian Arms, Pinchot Shamshirs.

Ham

27th September 2006, 10:38 AM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 506	It is definitely persian, the Zand period Hallo all, i have just seen the photos i attach in the great new book of Manoucher "arms and armor from Iran". In the photos are swords that exist on Iranian museums and belong to the Zand era, (arround 1750, before the Quajar). The similarities are obvious, and allthough there is no exactly the same swords, its elements exist in the swords of the photos. Therefore it is for sure Persian, made during the Zand era. Attached Images

27th September 2006, 12:58 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I still think it likely an early Qajar with a shashka blade.

27th September 2006, 02:00 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	The blade has no markings that can tell if its persian, but it has a mark, the star, which says its not. The hilt is certainly qajar.

27th September 2006, 03:11 PM	#4
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	Actually, karabela is also loosely translated in turkish also Ariel. kara for black and bela for pain/annoyance/giving or making trouble. So karabela is just not a loose translation in Italian. How it applies i dont know, just my 2 cents worth. but nice sword either way.

27th September 2006, 04:20 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It is possible that both blade and hilt are kadjar. The star symbol actually appears in Azerbaijan, both Persian and independent; here one can see a quadara with Qajar coins, making persian attribution easy. Again one might speculate that the blade is from somewhere else, but I believe it is a local Iranian (Azerbaijani ?) production: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1170 Slightly more modern: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=135

27th September 2006, 04:58 PM	#6
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Interesting find rivkin, this says that the blade could be Persian then.

1st October 2006, 07:52 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, The hilt of the sword is late Qajar, the blade is a Caucasian, probably Amuzgi made, copy of a Persian saber blade. This type is covered in Elgood Arabian Arms. The name 'karabela' may or may not derive from Turkish. Both Elgood and Pinchot argue for the city of Karbala, see Elgood Arabian Arms, Pinchot Shamshirs. Ham