anyone recognize this mark?

Marcus · 11th September 2006, 07:39 PM

This mark appears on a Belgian-made Montenegro pistol, along with a Persian crest (http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin06.JPG).
Thanks,
Marcus

David · 12th September 2006, 06:16 AM

Don't know if this would be helpful, but crossed keys is often intended as a sign for St. Peter and can be found quite often in heraldry. There is a Danish one in this group that looks close to yours, but given the pistol's origin it is probably coincidental.
http://www.ngw.nl/themes/sleutels.htm

Pangeran Datu · 12th September 2006, 07:42 AM

Hi,

Just my thoughts:

IMHO:
The two crossed keys (one for binding, one for loosening) is the symbol for St. Peter, gatekeeper of heaven in the Catholic religion. St. Peter is a very popular saint, hence the two keys are a common charge.
I am not familiar with a crown with five sections as depicted. The closest arms to that depicted is that of the Bishopric of York, England (AD 625).

Don't bother with the penny

(joke)

Cheers.

Marcus · 12th September 2006, 06:47 PM

Thanks for the link to the heraldry site. I tried to follow up to see if anything look particularily close in towns of either Belgium or Montenegro, but that is a pretty big data base. I did not get very far.
One fellow collector suggested that it might have been a maker's mark but I have also posted on a site that specializes in Belgian firearms and they have not come up with anything. Still a mystery....

Ian · 12th September 2006, 07:03 PM

Marcus:

What is the mark beside the ones you show (keys and crown)? Perhaps there is more information to be had from this piece.

Ian.

Marcus · 12th September 2006, 09:32 PM

The pistol is a Belgian-made Montenegrian revolver. The link I provided above I believe is a 1913 date stamp below a Persian crest. There is a similar mark on broomhandle Mauser pistols that were sold to Persian around 1910 (http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/persia.JPG). The other marks on the pistol include the usual Liege proof, and the typical Belgian Crown R (rifled) proof, as well as a "Crown L", "a Crown AM" proof and what could be a Star AL or HL. these later three are probably just inspection proofs with no special significance. The only words on the pistol are "VERO MONTENEGRIN". Below are links to pictures of the other marks:

http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin03.JPG
http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin04.JPG
http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin05.JPG
http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin08.JPG
http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin09.JPG

By the way, for people who do not know the story of these pistols: around 1874 Nikita 1, the King of Montenegro, mandated that all adult males in his kingdom should be well armed, a novel form of gun control, and that each man should own at least one Gasser Montenegrin type revolver. At the time, Montenegro was part of the Austro Hungarian Empire, and most of the guns sold in Montenegro were made by the Austrian firm of Gasser, of which King Nikita was a stock holder. Supplemental guns were also supplied by several small Belgian manufacturers. Montenegrin revolvers fired one of the largest pistol cartridges ever designed, nearly 50 caliber, with cartridges an inch and three quarters long. The design of these massive guns was rather primitive compared to other contemporary revolvers, but nonetheless the national mandate kept them in production up until World War 1. However, I have never hear that they were imported in any number to Persia. Below is a link to a picture of the pistol.

http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin01.JPG

Cheers,
Marcus

Congoblades · 13th September 2006, 11:15 AM

Hi Marcus,

The origin of the revolver is from the former Austria-Hungary realm at the end of the 19th century.
It is made by the company GASSER, model Montenegrin, so it is not made in Belgium. The Belgian stamp of Luik or only because the revolver was proofed in Luik.
The original model of the revolver is 'model 1880' but those where made in 1910. The revolver on the picture is probebly 'model 1873' made in 1913. They where made in 11mm Gasser, 8mm Gasser and 9mm Steyr.
So the stamp with the two key's are most probebly from Austrian-Hungarian origin.

The stamp ELG is Eduard Grimard Liège.
The stamps R, L and A with the crown are belgian stamps with the initials of the names of persons who proofed the revolver
Guy

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA12.html

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20autri...asser%20fr.htm

Marcus · 13th September 2006, 01:55 PM

Guy,
I appreciate your comments, but my gun was clearly not made by Gasser, but by a firm in Belgium. All Gasser-made pistols were so marked and additionally had a Crown over NI mark to indicate they were officially approved by King Nicki the first. Some guns were made in Belguim under contract and imported by Gasser. These too had the crown over NI mark. My pistol was probably made by one of the Belgian contractors, but for sale out side of Montenegro. Compare the gun you link to on the "little gun" site to this one on the same site:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...egrin%20gb.htm
which they identify as a Belgian copy of the Gasser.
I am still looking for Austro-Hungarian crown over key marks, but I think they might also be Belgian (consistent with origin) or from elsewhere in the Balkans (intended market?). In any case, if the crossed keys are a Christian symbol, they certainly do not Jive with the Persian crest. Was Persia the intended market? 1913 was after the Persian contract with Mauser, these old style Gassers would not have been a step forward.
Marcus

fernando · 13th September 2006, 09:55 PM

Quite a curiously marked specimen, this one.
The punctions are known as belgium, amazingly (too) clear and quite (too) many at same time ... i don't usually see all this array of punctions in belgium ordinary pieces, both in the ones i have and many others out there. The frase on the barrel "vero montenegrino" is in italian, easily a popular allusion engraved by the belgium maker for italian trade, but hardly directed to either Montenegro or Persia. Also (too) many and varied seals. The one that looks like persian ... is it actually a real ordnance persian seal ? The one with the keys could be Saint Peter's influenced, though the crown is not Papal, but a classic King's crown ... could it be the ( fantasy ) seal of an Italian gun importer/trader?
The two letters before 1913 are certainly initials, and they would help a lot to figure out things, even if by exclusion.
The most amazing thing is that, browsing the net for vero montenegrino, we can see that some years ago an example with precisely the same marks and punctions as yours, was queried on about the same points. The owner said that it was captured and brought to the States by a WWII american soldier.
I hope some the above will help you relating things at tracking your piece provenance.
fernando

Congoblades · 13th September 2006, 10:56 PM

Some more info about Austria-Hungary GASSER, nr. 235 looks close. nr. 231 is Gasser 'Montenegrin Model' Maybe it is made in Belgium, it is stil a Gasser

Marcus · 14th September 2006, 04:28 AM

Fernando,
Thank you for your research. Yes it is a very curious piece and I did find the thread from 2000 that you mention (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=45496). The woman (Lisa) gives her e-mail and I sent her a message, unfortunately the message bounced back.
It seems like Lisa never got any replies on her original post. Clearly this group is doing better.
The fact that she had the same SC1913 mark makes it seem more likely to me that is a year or contract stamp. The person who sold mine thought that was the serial number.
There are 2 numbers which appear in several places on my gun, 39 and 316 (see picture below). I am guessing that 316 is the serial number and 39 some sort of assembly number.
You have to love a puzzle. Thanks to all for the interest. I hope we figure out the crown and keys!
Cheers,
Marcus

11th September 2006, 07:39 PM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	anyone recognize this mark? This mark appears on a Belgian-made Montenegro pistol, along with a Persian crest (http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin06.JPG). Thanks, Marcus Attached Images

12th September 2006, 07:42 AM	#3
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Hi, Just my thoughts: IMHO: The two crossed keys (one for binding, one for loosening) is the symbol for St. Peter, gatekeeper of heaven in the Catholic religion. St. Peter is a very popular saint, hence the two keys are a common charge. I am not familiar with a crown with five sections as depicted. The closest arms to that depicted is that of the Bishopric of York, England (AD 625). Don't bother with the penny (joke) Cheers. Last edited by Pangeran Datu; 12th September 2006 at 08:09 AM.

12th September 2006, 06:47 PM	#4
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	It's a start (maybe) Thanks for the link to the heraldry site. I tried to follow up to see if anything look particularily close in towns of either Belgium or Montenegro, but that is a pretty big data base. I did not get very far. One fellow collector suggested that it might have been a maker's mark but I have also posted on a site that specializes in Belgian firearms and they have not come up with anything. Still a mystery....

12th September 2006, 09:32 PM	#6
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Since you ask: The pistol is a Belgian-made Montenegrian revolver. The link I provided above I believe is a 1913 date stamp below a Persian crest. There is a similar mark on broomhandle Mauser pistols that were sold to Persian around 1910 (http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/persia.JPG). The other marks on the pistol include the usual Liege proof, and the typical Belgian Crown R (rifled) proof, as well as a "Crown L", "a Crown AM" proof and what could be a Star AL or HL. these later three are probably just inspection proofs with no special significance. The only words on the pistol are "VERO MONTENEGRIN". Below are links to pictures of the other marks: http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin03.JPG http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin04.JPG http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin05.JPG http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin08.JPG http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin09.JPG By the way, for people who do not know the story of these pistols: around 1874 Nikita 1, the King of Montenegro, mandated that all adult males in his kingdom should be well armed, a novel form of gun control, and that each man should own at least one Gasser Montenegrin type revolver. At the time, Montenegro was part of the Austro Hungarian Empire, and most of the guns sold in Montenegro were made by the Austrian firm of Gasser, of which King Nikita was a stock holder. Supplemental guns were also supplied by several small Belgian manufacturers. Montenegrin revolvers fired one of the largest pistol cartridges ever designed, nearly 50 caliber, with cartridges an inch and three quarters long. The design of these massive guns was rather primitive compared to other contemporary revolvers, but nonetheless the national mandate kept them in production up until World War 1. However, I have never hear that they were imported in any number to Persia. Below is a link to a picture of the pistol. http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/~papke/curios/Montenegrin01.JPG Cheers, Marcus

13th September 2006, 11:15 AM	#7
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Hi Marcus, The origin of the revolver is from the former Austria-Hungary realm at the end of the 19th century. It is made by the company GASSER, model Montenegrin, so it is not made in Belgium. The Belgian stamp of Luik or only because the revolver was proofed in Luik. The original model of the revolver is 'model 1880' but those where made in 1910. The revolver on the picture is probebly 'model 1873' made in 1913. They where made in 11mm Gasser, 8mm Gasser and 9mm Steyr. So the stamp with the two key's are most probebly from Austrian-Hungarian origin. The stamp ELG is Eduard Grimard Liège. The stamps R, L and A with the crown are belgian stamps with the initials of the names of persons who proofed the revolver Guy http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA12.html http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20autri...asser%20fr.htm Last edited by Congoblades; 13th September 2006 at 11:32 AM.

12th September 2006, 06:16 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Don't know if this would be helpful, but crossed keys is often intended as a sign for St. Peter and can be found quite often in heraldry. There is a Danish one in this group that looks close to yours, but given the pistol's origin it is probably coincidental. http://www.ngw.nl/themes/sleutels.htm

12th September 2006, 07:03 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Marcus: What is the mark beside the ones you show (keys and crown)? Perhaps there is more information to be had from this piece. Ian.

13th September 2006, 01:55 PM	#8
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Clarification Guy, I appreciate your comments, but my gun was clearly not made by Gasser, but by a firm in Belgium. All Gasser-made pistols were so marked and additionally had a Crown over NI mark to indicate they were officially approved by King Nicki the first. Some guns were made in Belguim under contract and imported by Gasser. These too had the crown over NI mark. My pistol was probably made by one of the Belgian contractors, but for sale out side of Montenegro. Compare the gun you link to on the "little gun" site to this one on the same site: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...egrin%20gb.htm which they identify as a Belgian copy of the Gasser. I am still looking for Austro-Hungarian crown over key marks, but I think they might also be Belgian (consistent with origin) or from elsewhere in the Balkans (intended market?). In any case, if the crossed keys are a Christian symbol, they certainly do not Jive with the Persian crest. Was Persia the intended market? 1913 was after the Persian contract with Mauser, these old style Gassers would not have been a step forward. Marcus

13th September 2006, 09:55 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Quite a curiously marked specimen, this one. The punctions are known as belgium, amazingly (too) clear and quite (too) many at same time ... i don't usually see all this array of punctions in belgium ordinary pieces, both in the ones i have and many others out there. The frase on the barrel "vero montenegrino" is in italian, easily a popular allusion engraved by the belgium maker for italian trade, but hardly directed to either Montenegro or Persia. Also (too) many and varied seals. The one that looks like persian ... is it actually a real ordnance persian seal ? The one with the keys could be Saint Peter's influenced, though the crown is not Papal, but a classic King's crown ... could it be the ( fantasy ) seal of an Italian gun importer/trader? The two letters before 1913 are certainly initials, and they would help a lot to figure out things, even if by exclusion. The most amazing thing is that, browsing the net for vero montenegrino, we can see that some years ago an example with precisely the same marks and punctions as yours, was queried on about the same points. The owner said that it was captured and brought to the States by a WWII american soldier. I hope some the above will help you relating things at tracking your piece provenance. fernando

13th September 2006, 10:56 PM	#10
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Some more info about Austria-Hungary GASSER, nr. 235 looks close. nr. 231 is Gasser 'Montenegrin Model' Maybe it is made in Belgium, it is stil a Gasser Attached Images

14th September 2006, 04:28 AM	#11
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	WW2 bring back Fernando, Thank you for your research. Yes it is a very curious piece and I did find the thread from 2000 that you mention (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=45496). The woman (Lisa) gives her e-mail and I sent her a message, unfortunately the message bounced back. It seems like Lisa never got any replies on her original post. Clearly this group is doing better. The fact that she had the same SC1913 mark makes it seem more likely to me that is a year or contract stamp. The person who sold mine thought that was the serial number. There are 2 numbers which appear in several places on my gun, 39 and 316 (see picture below). I am guessing that 316 is the serial number and 39 some sort of assembly number. You have to love a puzzle. Thanks to all for the interest. I hope we figure out the crown and keys! Cheers, Marcus Attached Images