Glasgow Hilt?

Rachelle.Slattery · 28th September 2024, 11:46 PM

I've been lurking and searching on here for a while trying to learn more about the swords I inherited from my grandfather. Below is what I believe to be a Glasgow hilt. I have only just been able to find what may be some form of maker's mark/s on the hilt. Unfortunately, there appears to be no markings on the blade. If anyone is able to shed more light on exactly what, who etc I have here. I will also be uploading more of what I have inherited, but would like to gain as much info on them one by one.

Interested Party · 29th September 2024, 07:16 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your granddad but it is a nice inheritance. I am looking forward to reading what the experts have to say and seeing the rest of the collection. I have always wanted one of these with the broad sword blade, wrist protection intact for use on foot, and Jacobite decoration.

Radboud · Yesterday, 02:03 AM

Interesting, this is the second time I've seen sword made up from a basket hilt and a Sudanese takouba blade.

The blade on the other sword used a 1828 pattern basket, and had a marked blade:
Name: takouba basket hilt composit 01.jpg
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Name: takouba basket hilt composit 01.jpg
Views: 179
Size: 91.2 KB

Name: takouba basket hilt composit 02.jpg
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Name: takouba basket hilt composit 03.jpg
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It makes me think that there was someone assembling these swords out of parts some time back.

Interested Party · Yesterday, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

It makes me think that there was someone assembling these swords out of parts some time back.

Where do you think this basket came from?

Rachelle.Slattery · Yesterday, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

Interesting, this is the second time I've seen sword made up from a basket hilt and a Sudanese takouba blade.

Interesting. There is no apparent markings on the blade that I've been able to find. Would the blade potentially date differently to the hilt?

Lee · Yesterday, 01:46 PM

In the relevant times, European "trade" blades were widely exported and may be seen in a wide variety of regional mountings: Tuareg takoubas, Sudanese kaskaras, Mexican espada anchas and, yes, Scottish basket hilts.

But, Scottish baskethilts are a treacherous area indeed as far as prevalence of forgeries goes - especially with desirable broad double-edged blades - and my own record of separating true from false is one of failure and acquisition of expensive and attractive wall hangers unlikely to have ever been in Scotland.

There are some members here with experience in these things and hopefully they can narrow down the origins of the hilt and whether the blade is original to it.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 06:34 PM

This is a most interesting thread in examining this Scottish basket hilt, which is 'by the numbers' a traditional Glasgow form. I have been going through resources to find comparisons, and there are a number of key factors to note.

First I would refer to the blade, which is clearly not of broadsword blade forms typically seen in Scottish basket hilts. As has been noted, there are numbers of cases where readily available broadsword blades from the Sudanese campaigns seem to have been used to fashion mostly reproductions of medieval broadswords. However with the Scottish fashion in vogue in Great Britain from 1850s it does not seem far fetched to imagine officers desiring basket hilt swords in this convention.

This blade seems to follow the centrally placed triple fuller configuration which is indeed much like those of Sudan as well as the Sahara, with the opposed crescent moons (dukari) most typical of Saharan examples. While there do seem to be triple fuller centrally placed configurations on earlier blades from Europe, these North African types (often termed Masri) apparently were made locally as well as being imported from Solingen. As far as known the twin moons were applied locally (presumably by Hausa smiths).

Whatever the case, this blade seems to be in latter 19th c. probability, and possibly indeed from a kaskara sword from Sudan.

With the hilt, as noted, by the numbers it follows distinct Scottish convention in the pierced decoration, but seems rather crude for the known hammermen of Glasgow. I have never seen an X with simple intersecting lines and holes drilled at all points on the side shields. The triangles with two dots above in piercings on the shield seem to follow earlier form (1720s-30s) but the pommel etc of later bun form. The bracket cut edges on shield and guards are impressive, but the applying of lined borders seem lacking.

With the presumed makers marks which appear to be initials I cannot see clearly, but in the correct configuration in accord with the 8 known examples (T Gemmill signed his full name in the 9th). The lower letter typically is an S or G (Stirling or Glasgow) for the makers place of production.

In these initials on the rear quillon (bottom of hilt) while properly placed the letters do not seem in accord with any of the known makers who signed their hilts. The Stirling hilts were 'artistic' (seldom alike) while Glasgow followed traditional style and form.

These are just my observations from what I can find in resources so far (Mazansky; Whitelaw; Wallace) and I would welcome any other notes or views.

I would be interested to know more on the circumstances of the late gentleman who owned this basket hilt as he apparently owned other swords as well. These kinds of notes as part of the provenance of these help a great deal in determining more on the weapon(s) themselves. It sounds as if he was a discerning gentleman, and it would be fascinating to know more on the nature of his collecting.

I would like to thank Rachel for sharing this basket hilt here and for joining us!

28th September 2024, 11:46 PM	#1
Rachelle.Slattery Member Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 2	Glasgow Hilt? I've been lurking and searching on here for a while trying to learn more about the swords I inherited from my grandfather. Below is what I believe to be a Glasgow hilt. I have only just been able to find what may be some form of maker's mark/s on the hilt. Unfortunately, there appears to be no markings on the blade. If anyone is able to shed more light on exactly what, who etc I have here. I will also be uploading more of what I have inherited, but would like to gain as much info on them one by one. Attached Images

Yesterday, 02:03 AM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Interesting, this is the second time I've seen sword made up from a basket hilt and a Sudanese takouba blade. The blade on the other sword used a 1828 pattern basket, and had a marked blade: It makes me think that there was someone assembling these swords out of parts some time back.

29th September 2024, 07:16 PM	#2
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 443	I'm sorry to hear about your granddad but it is a nice inheritance. I am looking forward to reading what the experts have to say and seeing the rest of the collection. I have always wanted one of these with the broad sword blade, wrist protection intact for use on foot, and Jacobite decoration.

Yesterday, 01:46 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 911	In the relevant times, European "trade" blades were widely exported and may be seen in a wide variety of regional mountings: Tuareg takoubas, Sudanese kaskaras, Mexican espada anchas and, yes, Scottish basket hilts. But, Scottish baskethilts are a treacherous area indeed as far as prevalence of forgeries goes - especially with desirable broad double-edged blades - and my own record of separating true from false is one of failure and acquisition of expensive and attractive wall hangers unlikely to have ever been in Scotland. There are some members here with experience in these things and hopefully they can narrow down the origins of the hilt and whether the blade is original to it.

Yesterday, 06:34 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,922	This is a most interesting thread in examining this Scottish basket hilt, which is 'by the numbers' a traditional Glasgow form. I have been going through resources to find comparisons, and there are a number of key factors to note. First I would refer to the blade, which is clearly not of broadsword blade forms typically seen in Scottish basket hilts. As has been noted, there are numbers of cases where readily available broadsword blades from the Sudanese campaigns seem to have been used to fashion mostly reproductions of medieval broadswords. However with the Scottish fashion in vogue in Great Britain from 1850s it does not seem far fetched to imagine officers desiring basket hilt swords in this convention. This blade seems to follow the centrally placed triple fuller configuration which is indeed much like those of Sudan as well as the Sahara, with the opposed crescent moons (dukari) most typical of Saharan examples. While there do seem to be triple fuller centrally placed configurations on earlier blades from Europe, these North African types (often termed Masri) apparently were made locally as well as being imported from Solingen. As far as known the twin moons were applied locally (presumably by Hausa smiths). Whatever the case, this blade seems to be in latter 19th c. probability, and possibly indeed from a kaskara sword from Sudan. With the hilt, as noted, by the numbers it follows distinct Scottish convention in the pierced decoration, but seems rather crude for the known hammermen of Glasgow. I have never seen an X with simple intersecting lines and holes drilled at all points on the side shields. The triangles with two dots above in piercings on the shield seem to follow earlier form (1720s-30s) but the pommel etc of later bun form. The bracket cut edges on shield and guards are impressive, but the applying of lined borders seem lacking. With the presumed makers marks which appear to be initials I cannot see clearly, but in the correct configuration in accord with the 8 known examples (T Gemmill signed his full name in the 9th). The lower letter typically is an S or G (Stirling or Glasgow) for the makers place of production. In these initials on the rear quillon (bottom of hilt) while properly placed the letters do not seem in accord with any of the known makers who signed their hilts. The Stirling hilts were 'artistic' (seldom alike) while Glasgow followed traditional style and form. These are just my observations from what I can find in resources so far (Mazansky; Whitelaw; Wallace) and I would welcome any other notes or views. I would be interested to know more on the circumstances of the late gentleman who owned this basket hilt as he apparently owned other swords as well. These kinds of notes as part of the provenance of these help a great deal in determining more on the weapon(s) themselves. It sounds as if he was a discerning gentleman, and it would be fascinating to know more on the nature of his collecting. I would like to thank Rachel for sharing this basket hilt here and for joining us!