Is it a real Keris?

[HughChen]

or a keris-like thing?

[David]

Looks very much like a real keris to me. Double naga?

[A. G. Maisey]

I think so, but a full length pic would help.

[HughChen]

more pics

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you HughChen.

I believe that we are looking at an East Javanese keris, or possibly Madurese. I had that thought that it might be current era, but I am now not so sure.

To form any sort of defensible opinion on age I would need to handle this keris, however, it is a real keris and I believe the abstract figures are intended as two nagas.

The dress is South Sumatera & appears to be recent.

I am not able to form an opinion on whether this keris was put together in East Jawa, perhaps Surabaya, or whether the blade was taken to Sumatera & it was put together there.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

Looks very much like a real keris to me. Double naga?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think so, but a full length pic would help.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you HughChen.

I believe that we are looking at an East Javanese keris, or possibly Madurese. I had that thought that it might be current era, but I am now not so sure.

To form any sort of defensible opinion on age I would need to handle this keris, however, it is a real keris and I believe the abstract figures are intended as two nagas.

The dress is South Sumatera & appears to be recent.

I am not able to form an opinion on whether this keris was put together in East Jawa, perhaps Surabaya, or whether the blade was taken to Sumatera & it was put together there.

Thank you for reply, I think it looks weird and designed very modern.

[A. G. Maisey]

I do not understand "wired" in this context.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not understand "wired" in this context.

Thanks for reminding, I've correct this misspelled word.

[A. G. Maisey]

OK --- got it.

No, it is not weird, nor is the style modern, it is totally legitimate, but it is the type of thing that modern makers in East Jawa/Madura like to produce, and to my eye, there are a couple of characteristics that do not say "old" whilst other characteristics do say "old".

From the pics I cannot form a defensible opinion.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK --- got it.

No, it is not weird, nor is the style modern, it is totally legitimate, but it is the type of thing that modern makers in East Jawa/Madura like to produce, and to my eye, there are a couple of characteristics that do not say "old" whilst other characteristics do say "old".

From the pics I cannot form a defensible opinion.

Thank you Alan, I think it might probably be new and not good. Because I once purchased one in similar dress (as pics). It looked good in video and pics, but when I received it, I found it extremely thin whose point is as thin as a Razor blade.

[A. G. Maisey]

The blade shown in post #10 is old, I do not have an opinion on how old, but definitely pre-WWII.

Old keris often have very thin blades, as do keris of ordinary quality.

More recent keris often have heavier blades.

Whether a keris is old or recent has very little to do with its quality or its desirability.

Certainly an older keris of high quality has a much higher value than a recent keris of high quality. It is also certain that some collectors prefer older keris, but many collectors focus on the artistic aspects of the keris, & these collectors will have collections that contain large numbers of more recent keris.

Just because a keris has some age, that does not necessarily mean that it is very desirable for all collectors.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The blade shown in post #10 is old, I do not have an opinion on how old, but definitely pre-WWII.

Old keris often have very thin blades, as do keris of ordinary quality.

More recent keris often have heavier blades.

Whether a keris is old or recent has very little to do with its quality or its desirability.

Certainly an older keris of high quality has a much higher value than a recent keris of high quality. It is also certain that some collectors prefer older keris, but many collectors focus on the artistic aspects of the keris, & these collectors will have collections that contain large numbers of more recent keris.

Just because a keris has some age, that does not necessarily mean that it is very desirable for all collectors.

Then the question will be what's the use of those thin blade? IF the blade were thin, they can be of no use in combat. And it will be easy to be hurt or broken. So why do they produce those kind of blade? Since they are almost useless, what elements make them real Keris?

[A. G. Maisey]

As a weapon the keris is used as a stabbing weapon, it is usual that for most keris from most societies, no more than just the first couple of inches of the blade is hardened.

In respect of Javanese keris, the preferred method of use was the surprise attack from the side, in passing, or from the back; face to face combat was avoided & no system of fence was developed, when forced into use in a face to face situation, the keris was used as an addition to indigenous martial arts systems.

It might be noted, that indigenous Javanese martial arts systems rely heavily upon the element of surprise, the Javanese philosophy of personal combat is that combat should be avoided at all cost, & never engaged in except upon one's own choice of time & place.

The keris was never, at any time, a weapon of war, but most Javanese in ancient times would carry at least one keris into a battle situation, & sometimes as many as three. In the battle context the keris was a weapon of last resort that hopefully never was used, but by its presence did offer a level of spiritual protection.

Older blades become thin over time because of the continual cleaning over hundreds of years.

In the early 19th century, Raffles recorded that since about 1750, the position of the keris in Javanese society had been similar to the position of the small sword in European society, that is, as an item of dress that might very occasionally be called upon to serve as a weapon.

The position of the keris in the various SE Asian societies that adopted its use varies, in some societies it was thought of primarily as a weapon, in others the way in which it was thought of was socio-religious. However, I believe that in all keris bearing societies there was & is a spiritual element attached to the keris.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The blade shown in post #10 is old, I do not have an opinion on how old, but definitely pre-WWII.

Old keris often have very thin blades, as do keris of ordinary quality.

More recent keris often have heavier blades.

Whether a keris is old or recent has very little to do with its quality or its desirability.

Certainly an older keris of high quality has a much higher value than a recent keris of high quality. It is also certain that some collectors prefer older keris, but many collectors focus on the artistic aspects of the keris, & these collectors will have collections that contain large numbers of more recent keris.

Just because a keris has some age, that does not necessarily mean that it is very desirable for all collectors.

It's really very very thin !

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, true, & what I have written is really very, very accurate.

I don't think in terms of a razor blade, but I have often likened the thinness of old keris to the thinness of a piece of paper.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, true, & what I have written is really very, very accurate.

I don't think in terms of a razor blade, but I have often likened the thinness of old keris to the thinness of a piece of paper.

It's indeed a piece of paper. I can't believe how can such a thin blade survive 100 years.

Based on what I learn today, I think this Javanese blade discussed before must be old and genuine too. Because it's also thin, not as thin as this paper-like one, but still thin and vounarable in the point.


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30105

[A. G. Maisey]

It was probably thicker 100 years ago.

Keris are regularly cleaned with coconut water or lime juice, or some other mild acid, sometimes they are polished with abrasives, this cleaning removes, dirt, corrosion & also metal.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It was probably thicker 100 years ago.

Keris are regularly cleaned with coconut water or lime juice, or some other mild acid, sometimes they are polished with abrasives, this cleaning removes, dirt, corrosion & also metal.

It is losing its metal in a visible way. This Keris is like a piece of toast without crust, every time you touch it with your hand, some bread crumbs will fall off.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK --- got it.

No, it is not weird, nor is the style modern, it is totally legitimate, but it is the type of thing that modern makers in East Jawa/Madura like to produce, and to my eye, there are a couple of characteristics that do not say "old" whilst other characteristics do say "old".

From the pics I cannot form a defensible opinion.

Alan, can you tell us what old characteristics and young characteristics have you seen?

[A. G. Maisey]

This is what I wrote:---

"--- I believe that we are looking at an East Javanese keris, or possibly Madurese. I had that thought that it might be current era, but I am now not so sure.

To form any sort of defensible opinion on age I would need to handle this keris,---"


If i look at the gonjo there is virtually no erosion of the greneng & the joint between blade base and gonjo has not opened up, there is no real gap at the wadidang between gonjo & blade, and the core seems to be pretty thick. All this impresses me as recent, maybe even current.

The overall impression is one of age, the pawakan is Ok for age, the twin nagas are an older style of motif but the erosion here is uneven.

As we move towards the point the erosion looks more severe, if this is an older blade the heavier erosion could be because of hardening of the front part of the blade, but if it is a more recent blade --- and I'm thinking post 1980ish --- the erosion is because of false aging that was poorly managed.

I cannot tell with certainty what I'm looking at from the photo, but I sure wouldn't gamble money on it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with recent, current era keris, taken as they are, they are just as collectable as older keris, in many ways, perhaps more so, but when some entrepreneurial dealer decides he wants to make that perfectly good recent keris look 200 years older than it really is, well, to me that is criminal behaviour.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This is what I wrote:---

"--- I believe that we are looking at an East Javanese keris, or possibly Madurese. I had that thought that it might be current era, but I am now not so sure.

To form any sort of defensible opinion on age I would need to handle this keris,---"


If i look at the gonjo there is virtually no erosion of the greneng & the joint between blade base and gonjo has not opened up, there is no real gap at the wadidang between gonjo & blade, and the core seems to be pretty thick. All this impresses me as recent, maybe even current.

The overall impression is one of age, the pawakan is Ok for age, the twin nagas are an older style of motif but the erosion here is uneven.

As we move towards the point the erosion looks more severe, if this is an older blade the heavier erosion could be because of hardening of the front part of the blade, but if it is a more recent blade --- and I'm thinking post 1980ish --- the erosion is because of false aging that was poorly managed.

I cannot tell with certainty what I'm looking at from the photo, but I sure wouldn't gamble money on it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with recent, current era keris, taken as they are, they are just as collectable as older keris, in many ways, perhaps more so, but when some entrepreneurial dealer decides he wants to make that perfectly good recent keris look 200 years older than it really is, well, to me that is criminal behaviour.

Thank you Alan, Very useful tips on judging the age of a keris. It's a very important ability for collectors in an environment where almost every Keris is alleged to be of 19th century.