Side sword with Victorian chiseled hilt?

[10thRoyal]

Good morning everyone. After a surprisingly good morning at an estate sale, I've got a few meaty swords to dig into researching. For the price I paid for them, they could all be reproductions and I'd still be very pleased with the morning.

First up I've got what appears to be a early 1600's side sword with a chiseled hilt. I'm pretty dubious about these chiseled hilts as they all strike me as sort of Gothic-revival Victorian types of thing. On top of that the grip is pierced brass. Once again, not unheard of on legitimate period blades but also vaguely Victorian. I'm also a bit weary of the fit between the blade and hilt.

As for the blade, it seems legitimate to me. Cross marks at the ricasso match several Italian marks with a running(standing?) wolf inscribed in the fuller. Blade is roughly 38 inches give or take. I can't find an exact match for the mark just yet.

The last picture is a bit messy as it is sitting on a stack of other swords but you can still get an idea of the detail. The pommel is quite interesting, it almost has a Schiavona outline.

I'm very curious to hear y'all's thoughts!

Best,
Michael, 10thRoyal

[Interested Party]

Somewhere in Norman recently I read about a style of 17th century English hilts with joints like bamboo. If memory serves p. 373, the section on chiseled hilts. I will double check later after work if no one else posts.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Somewhere in Norman recently I read about a style of 17th century English hilts with joints like bamboo. If memory serves p. 373, the section on chiseled hilts. I will double check later after work if no one else posts.

Interesting. My mind immediately went to finger bones but I see the bamboo now.

[midelburgo]

Some Victorian copies weight much more than what they should. Also bad balance. That is a start.

[ulfberth]

The blade is 17th century , The pommel is composite and does not belong to this type of rapier neither does it fit the grip its a shiavona type of pommel.
For the guard i lean towords 19th c based on these few pics ,more detailed pictures are needed to be sure , the back of the guard is missing it was probably the same guard ring is the front, altough this type of guard existed in the 17th c this one is pretty rougly made the original ones were usualy more refined .
kind regards
Ulfberth

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

The blade is 17th century , The pommel is composite and does not belong to this type of rapier neither does it fit the grip its a shiavona type of pommel.
For the guard i lean towords 19th c based on these few pics ,more detailed pictures are needed to be sure , the back of the guard is missing it was probably the same guard ring is the front, altough this type of guard existed in the 17th c this one is pretty rougly made the original ones were usualy more refined .
kind regards
Ulfberth

I think that's a good catch Ulfberth, it does look like the other half of the guard may have snapped off and someone may have sanded down the fracture surface. After looking at it more the pommel does look straight off a schiavona. Luckily the blade itself looks fantastic and I'm super happy with it. I'll have more details coming when I have the swords in hand.

Here is the rest of what is coming to me from that estate:

[ulfberth]

these 3 are all good , the schiavona looks complete and undamaged, the North Italian naval sabre 17th c has a nice blade, its pretty rare and looks nicer than most, the cup hilt is probably late 17th or early 18th c it has a nice colichemarde blade, more details of the gaurds , grips pommel and blade would be nice, these seem to be pure and unaltered items.
Here is a picture of a similar rapier as the one you bought, this particular one has the two guard rings intact and has the original pommel, it was sold at auction 11 years ago and described as 19th c but it was absolute completely all original.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

these 3 are all good , the schiavona looks complete and undamaged, the North Italian naval sabre 17th c has a nice blade, its pretty rare and looks nicer than most, the cup hilt is probably late 17th or early 18th c it has a nice colichemarde blade, more details of the gaurds , grips pommel and blade would be nice, these seem to be pure and unaltered items.
Here is a picture of a similar rapier as the one you bought, this particular one has the two guard rings intact and has the original pommel, it was sold at auction 11 years ago and described as 19th c but it was absolute completely all original.
kind regards
Ulfberth

Its always so good to see your entries here!!!! Your astute eye catches all, and your assessments confident and IMO conclusive.

The cuphilt is amazing, I've really never seen one with a colichemarde blade. In my view, with the advent of the colichemarde blade in the period you note it is well established this type blade became de riguer in France and England.
It is remarkably rare to see one on a Spanish cup hilt as these were attuned more to the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) primarily, which was markedly different than the French technigues.

The generally held theory on the colichemarde was that it provided a stronger upper blade section for the parry, with the French style of fencing which concentrated on much more dynamic swordplay and the lighter and faster small sword. The thin distal end of the blade of course afforded the thrust of the rapier. Allegedly the colichemarde blade fell out of favor by mid 18th in the civilian sector but seems to have been held traditionally longer by the military with their strong sense of tradition.

On this interesting rapier in the OP, am I mistaken or could the dual markings on the blade be spuriously applied renditions of those of the house of Missaglia in Milan? One of the variations of their mark seems to be a 'tailed' cross ("Scottish Swords from the Battlefield of Culloden", Lord Archibald Campbell, repr. Andrew Mowbray, 1971, p.48).
With the unusual 'running wolf', this blade seems certainly a 17th century Solingen product, but unusual to see the Missaglia (?) mark. It seems of course that Solingen favored Spanish names and punzones, but with Milan being in Spains provincial sphere, many Spanish arms and armor had these connections.

[ulfberth]

Thank you for your kind words Jim !
Over the years I had two cup hitls with colichemarde blades , one was a very nice pierced cup hilt of high quality with almost the exact type of blade, the handling was incredible, i will look if i still can find some pictures of it.
You are right about the blade marks being Italian , perhaps they used a German export blade and stamped it when it was fitted ? Its just an assumption because i realy cant say why, we sometimes find things, contradictions to wich we cant answer with facts ( yet )
kind regards
Ufberth

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

these 3 are all good , the schiavona looks complete and undamaged, the North Italian naval sabre 17th c has a nice blade, its pretty rare and looks nicer than most, the cup hilt is probably late 17th or early 18th c it has a nice colichemarde blade, more details of the gaurds , grips pommel and blade would be nice, these seem to be pure and unaltered items.
Here is a picture of a similar rapier as the one you bought, this particular one has the two guard rings intact and has the original pommel, it was sold at auction 11 years ago and described as 19th c but it was absolute completely all original.
kind regards
Ulfberth

It's great to hear that there were some legitimate diamonds in the rough that I found. The rapier was under a literal pile of "made in Toledo, Spain" souvenir swords. I'll have everything in hand by Wednesday and can send more detailed pictures then. I forgot that I had two additional images of both the cup hilt rapier and Italian saber.




I was honestly worried about the blade decoration on the saber at first. It looked too much like arsenal tulwar decoration. But I later found multiple examples with similarly janky designs carved into them. The pommel cap is interesting. I associate that style much more with 18th and 19th century sabers.

On another note, do y'all have any idea if there is any significance behind these shapes on the rapier grip and quillons? Just the fact that it is repeated multiple times in different spots made me wonder if it was associated with anything. Or it's just a metal design that looks like a pretzel with zero special meaning.





Thank you again to Ulfberth and Mr. McDougall, y'all have a level of knowledge and desire to share that knowledge that new comers to the field can aspire to, myself included.

[ulfberth]

the naval sabre has indeed a later grip and pommel cap, the decoration on the blade reminds me on Italian blade decoration of the 16th c however on your sabre it looks similar yet different, not sure what to think if it.
The repeating shapes on the rapier is a good sign and i have seen it before, its more a baroque type design.
Here are some pictures of a cup hilt with a colichemarde blade, they are rare and different from the small swords colichemarde blades which are between 80 and 90 cm long while these rapier blades are between 100 and 115 cm long.
This particular one was hexagonal cross section hollow ground on the first wide part and after the fuller it changed to diamond cross section hollow ground.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

the naval sabre has indeed a later grip and pommel cap, the decoration on the blade reminds me on Italian blade decoration of the 16th c however on your sabre it looks similar yet different, not sure what to think if it.
The repeating shapes on the rapier is a good sign and i have seen it before, its more a baroque type design.
Here are some pictures of a cup hilt with a colichemarde blade, they are rare and different from the small swords colichemarde blades which are between 80 and 90 cm long while these rapier blades are between 100 and 115 cm long.
This particular one was hexagonal cross section hollow ground on the first wide part and after the fuller it changed to diamond cross section hollow ground.
kind regards
Ulfberth

That is a beautiful sword, is it yours? I'd love to match the maker's mark to a time period. Do we know if the colichemarde started on small sword and were applied to larger format rapiers or was it the other way around? And I never considered the size difference in the blades. Looking back at the photos of the cup hilt coming to me, assuming the planks in the floor are two inches wide, the blade would be about 38in to 40in long so roughly 96cm to 100cm. I really appreciate the fact that this is not simply a small sword blade on a rapier but was scaled up for the application.


And I found one example of the kind of decoration I had in mind when I saw the naval saber. This came from a Christie's auction.

[ulfberth]

i had it in my collection untill 2021, the colichemarde type blades are in general 18th century and found on small swords, however earlier variations were used in rapiers in the last quarter of the 17th century.
The blade in your rapier is ca 1600 - 1650 the running wolf on the blade is German Solingen Passau but the stamps seem North Italian, i have not found an exact match yet, there was alot of export of these blades to other countries.

[awdaniec666]

A brief reminder that these sabres were not only used on the sea.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

A brief reminder that these sabres were not only used on the sea.

i think for just about any other sword of this type you be 100% correct. But this one may be a little different. Kind of. Sort of. Its complicated. After some additional research, I think this blade may need it's own thread.

Ulfberth's comment on Italian naval sabers led me down a rabbit hole of naval pattern schiavona's, Fanti del Mar was one word that popped up on a thread from this website. From there I found a number of examples of schiavona's with guards identical to the one on mine, except with completely different pommels and completely different blades.





Finally I found one that gave me a bit of a eureka moment, below is an image of a closeup of a guard of one of a marine Schiavona with a Venitian arsenal mark on the guard, the second is my sword:



And there it is! A (probable) Venetian maker's mark on my own sword. So what I have is a guard from one of these Venitian marine swords, with a storta, falchion, dussack, etc, etc blade. So you are both right I believe.

[ulfberth]

Good Find 10th , that is the Venetian arsenal mark , its found on some schiavonas to, your blade could be variation used in this type and the curved blade is common on naval swords. I always liked these, they show character trough simplicity and even tough they are simple they have a certain elegance about them.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain.
One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent.
I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd.
The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield.
It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion.
My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain.
One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent.
I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd.
The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield.
It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion.
My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

This is the best I can do as far as proof goes, its the only pictures ive got left sadly, but the blade was signed " SEBASTIANO HERNANDES" and on the other side " EN TOLEDO" there were two maker marks on each side of the ricasso of of wich i can show you only one clearly.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

A beautiful sword. I could not have parted with it.
I notice that it is a verified Hernandes sword: the punzone on the ricasso is definitely his.
One thing I find curious is my cavalier rapier has a blade attributed to Hernandes but without the ricasso markings which leaves it open to suspicion. More to the point, the letter E in the fuller script of my sword is most odd... not unusual, but certainly odd, while yours is quite distinct. Does anyone have any input on this anomaly? Is this oddity something attributed to Germany?

[ulfberth]

your blade and the letter E is most certain an older version and probably made in Spain , while the blade in the cup hilt is between 1650 and 1680 and could be German Made , they imitated Spanish blade makers and put Spanish names on it in that period. Also the late 17th c blades have a more plain letter type on them. Than there is the fact that there were more makers named Hernandes over a stretch of 150 year period and certainly more makers using that name.
Blade makers names like CAINO , ANDREA FERRARA are also know of being used by more than one maker because these names were well known and sold good.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[10thRoyal]

The swords are in! Very happy with them, though the schiavona guard is loose. That one has a surprisingly heavy blade. The Venetian marine sword is feels great even with the non original grip. The weight and balance on it feel completely correct.

Now the rapier. Incredibly light feeling (which shouldn't be surprising, that's kind of the point). No markings on the blade or stamps on the ricasso. If a stamp is there, it is so light as to be invisible. Blade is forty inches long and transitions from a traditional flat blade to a fine diamond cross section. The thickness of the diamond portion is greater than the flat portion, meaning from the side the thickness actually appears to increase.

[ulfberth]

That sounds all good 10th Royal, schiavonas with the blade type like yours feel a bit heavy especialy the longer ones, its an arming sword, the guard a bit loose is also normal many swords and rapiers alike have some movement in the guard.
The cup hilt with the diamond cross section and sligthly thicker after the forte is exactly how these blades should be , these blades were a huge step forward back than and were very difficult to make and by the time more good blade smiths could make them the rapier hilts were almost out of use and the small sword became the weapon of choice. Blade marks or a name on the blade is always exiting and more valuable but its not a must, there are plenty of good blades that were never marked and some for specific reasons.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

What is especially interesting about the rapier, which in some ways contradicts what I suggested in my earlier post, is that it is munitions grade - almost totally devoid of embellishment, suggesting it was purely utilitarian and not ever for display.
This suggests to me that it was an everyday civilian's 'self-defence' weapon, and as such was very well chosen considering the wide array of attacking weapons possible.
At one time I thought this style of blade would be simpler to produce than the subsequent hollow-ground smallsword style, but considering your statement further Ulfberth, I now agree it must have presented quite a challenge.

[10thRoyal]

I personally quite enjoy the idea of an "everyday carry" rapier hahaha. That's exactly how it feels. Comfortable, light, not excessively huge. I'd be curious to see what form a scabbard for this would take.

A few final thoughts on the chiseled hilt rapier. Balance is surprisingly quite nice. Balance is just forward of the grip. It appears there was another half shell that has since broken off, the fracture face has been covered in some sort of tin braze I think, hence the odd surface finish at that location. There was a sticker with collection number under the remaining guard. The schiavona pommel may not be strictly correct to the sword, but is actually really very nice.


To my surprise, the marine saber may be my favorite. It feels very nice in the hand. Very good balance. Definitely a "knife work" ready sword. The blade also has a very nice false edge on the clipped point. Needs a good tooth brush cleaning and oiling to prevent red rust. The grip to my surprise isn't wood at all but is a cast (I'm assuming) grip. Maybe from a later saber or cutlass? It looks like the pommel cap which is a separate piece, fits it perfectly, so likely went with that grip. I'll see if I can find a match. All in all, I'm very happy. 10/10 would board Ottaman galley with this in hand.




Schiavona is still nice but maybe the weakest of the four. I've never held anything "munitions grade" from this time period, but I imagine it feels just like the schiavona. Balance feels way too heavy for the size. The blade is almost certainly shortened. The thickness of the edge towards the tip is far to thick and doesn't match the edge thickness towards the grip. Blade still tapers in thickness from ricasso to tip but not enough to be comfortable. This one I will probably part with to further the collection.