a puzzle

[NeilUK]

I recently was bequeathed by a friend, now sadly dead, a most unusual socket sword bayonet. Overall its length is 81.5cm, with a blade of 69cm, and that despite the loss of its point. The blade is back edged with a narrow fuller for 3/4 of its length just in from the back. The blade has a single mark - a crown over the number '2', a standard British government acceptance mark. The socket is marked '11' and '81' which suggests Company 11, rack number 81. I have been able to discover that it is probably a Pioneer sword converted into a bayonet, hence the extreme length. What do the edged weapon experts think?
I have no information as to its provenance, my friend had never mentioned it and his family know nothing about it.
Neil

[NeilUK]

I am a bit surprised that this most unusual bayonet (69cm blade) has not inspired a single comment or expression of interest. There is still time to comment!
Neil

[10thRoyal]

In my opinion it looks like a bayonet for an Indian Brown Bess. The spring on the socket seems to be pretty standard for that type. Maybe EIC?

[Jim McDougall]

I have no expertise on bayonets, but have a couple of references I was able to dig out.
As 10th has noted, that spring catch is exactly right for EIC Brown Bess c.1800-1805 ("Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", F.Stephens, 1971. #31).

However this is entirely an anomaly, and that catch is most of what corresponds to the EIC example.
There is the recent book, "Socket Bayonets" by Graham Priest (2016) which is an intriguing insight into these bayonets which offers information not in the venerable old references.

One thing I notice in the markings on the socket......supposedly 11 over 81, in accord with rack numbers often seen, however.....these characters look more like Roman numerals II rather than 11 (note serifs).

The '81' also seemed more like letters than numbers.
In the Priest book, I was astounded to see the example 98 (p.51) shown as a bayonet from a British volunteer unit from around 1790(?) .
LOOK AT THE CHARACTERS! very similar, looks like an 18 (it is noted only 18 made).
This bayonet obviously looks nothing like yours, but that marking is compelling.
In this period 1790s in England, there was a great deal of worry about French invasion, and there were numbers of militia, volunteer units formed, for which records are pretty scarce.

With the key element of the EIC type spring catch, it is tempting to think this might have been some sort of innovation in accord with the many changes in firearms design etc. of the time.

The view mark is in accord with the crown over numeral used 1796-1820 (after that letters were added, Robson, 1975, p.191).

It is unusual to see a back fuller on a blade, which seems entirely out of the norm with the triangular socket bayonets, and I am unclear on what sort of pioneer sword might be source for a host blade, or why one would be used for a munitions grade bayonet. There was however a great deal of artisan 'for the cause' work with people in various trades doing other work unrelated to their trade.

Could the '18' (?) be letters for some local unit, S.I. and the II the unit number? Then the MOST unusual blade shape.

These are the pieces of the puzzle, and all we can do is speculate at this point. One thing for sure, this is an anomaly with potential for some remarkable history!

[NeilUK]

Thanks for the extra info, Jim. It helps us along the road a bit more even if we haven't yet reached a conclusion.
Neil

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by NeilUK

Thanks for the extra info, Jim. It helps us along the road a bit more even if we haven't yet reached a conclusion.
Neil

You bet Neil! I felt kinda the same way....these posts just sit there and nobody says anything. As I noted, I dont know a lot on bayonets...but Im not afraid of opening a book, searching online etc. there are so many resources these days.

The whole idea of this forum is to discuss, share ideas, investigate, discover, preserve history.....and I am grateful to those who DO participate.
I learned from this unusual bayonet you posted, so thank you.

These kinds of anomalies often remain unresolved, but imagine if this WAS one of those 18 made for British volunteers!!!

Three THOUSAND views.......only TWO responses, myself and 10th.......incredible.

[corrado26]

Could it be that the number at the socked is II/SI and not II/8I?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Could it be that the number at the socked is II/SI and not II/8I?

That's what I was thinking too Udo. As I noted in my post (#4) the markings on the British volunteer unit bayonet are remarkably similar. In the late 1790s into early years of 1800s there was a distinct paranoia in England about possible French invasion. There were units of the army and artillery positioned along the coasts, and bolstered by various groups or units of militia.

It would seem possible that this might be markings from such a unit, though only some sort of corroboration from accounts of such units, which are apparently pretty scarce. The presumed numerals 18 seem more like an SI as the '8' character does not close and cross as it should, but remains open like an 'S.

[corrado26]

In my photo archive I found pictures of a percussion carbine with a lock signature "2. Scinde Irregular horse", a unit of the EIC in India. I am by no means a specialist of British troop markings and have absolutely nothing of helpful literature - but could i t be that II/SI stands for "2. Scinde Irregular" (or "Infantry")?

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In my photo archive I found pictures of a percussion carbine with a lock signature "2. Scinde Irregular horse", a unit of the EIC in India. I am by no means a specialist of British troop markings and have absolutely nothing of helpful literature - but could i t be that II/SI stands for "2. Scinde Irregular" (or "Infantry")?

That honestly checks all the boxes! Indian issued matches the spring clip, EIC issued would match the non-standard repurposed blade, and the inscription explanation is as close as we are likely to get. We'll done!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In my photo archive I found pictures of a percussion carbine with a lock signature "2. Scinde Irregular horse", a unit of the EIC in India. I am by no means a specialist of British troop markings and have absolutely nothing of helpful literature - but could i t be that II/SI stands for "2. Scinde Irregular" (or "Infantry")?

BRILLIANT Udo!
I would never have thought of that, yet over 40 years ago virtually all I studied and collected was British cavalry in the British Raj in India.

Perhaps the similarity to the EIC bayonet mentioned by '10thHussar' earlier has deeper connection. These Northwest regions were of course administratively controlled by the British government and of course the EIC.

The province of Sind was vast, rugged and on the trade route from Bolan Pass to Sukkur, the caravans were plagued by raiding Baluchi warriors/ In 1839, the SCINDE IRREGULAR HORSE was formed to guard these caravans and protect the route.

In 1846...the SECOND regiment of Scinde Irregular Horse was formed!
The term irregular was of course to note these units were native forces operating as auxiliary to the regular British army, and the term irregular itself was proudly held as a kind of elite.

It is a compelling notion to think this bayonet, seemingly corresponding to the EIC bayonet type (with spring catch) loosely might be of this connection.....II=2nd SI=Scinde Irregular.

While bayonets are of course typically regarded as infantry weapons for muskets, these cavalry were often carrying carbines, and these did sometimes have bayonets. There was often a great deal of innovation in bayonets which were associated with these, and it seems that one such irregular unit was known to have had a type of sword bayonet (it may have been Jacobs Horse, I need to find the references).

The illustration is a painting of Rissaldar Mohubut Khan, Bahadur, an officer of 2nd Scinde Irregular Horse.

[corrado26]

sometimes a blind hen finds a corn too

[Jim McDougall]

Gen. John Jacob (1812-1858) formed Scinde Irregular Horse and was in command of Second Scinde Irregular Horse (known colloquially as 'Jacobs Horse').
While as I mentioned, the cavalry often used carbines such as the 2nd Pattern Victoria percussion carbine or the Paget carbine of Napoleonic period.
Jacob developed the 'Jacobs Double Barrel Rifle' in 1856 which had the unusual sword bayonet, which was as long as the carbine itself.
These are extremely rare , as few were made and they were never officially accepted for use in the Indian army.

However it is noted "a number of variations are encountered in the RANGE of Jacob's bayonets, and it appears that some volunteer regiments adopted the rifle and bayonet for use" ("The Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", F.Stephens, 1971, #61 (p.37).

One such regiment was 1st Regt of Jacobs Rifles, which though obviously having nothing to do with the Scinde Cavalry suggests he (Jacob) had interests in foot units as well.

It seems that Jacob was a most innovative officer and clearly was designing various versions of the bayonet and the rifles being used.

The thing is, the government inspection stamp (crowned 2) as well as the distinct back fuller, suggesting this was a blade from a hanger (?)......the weapons to the EIC were not government inspected as this was a private enterprise.
Why would someone repurpose a hanger blade to produce a munitions grade bayonet?

Those are the concerns, while the other markings remain compelling.