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#1 |
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A cup hilt rapier for id.
Mark XX EN X MENE X Grip ivory ? O.L. 123 cm ; blade L. 105 cm; Any comment on it would be welcome. Best Cerjak |
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#2 |
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Très jolie, Jean-Lic; with a 'marguerite' type cup
![]() Check the ricasso part inside the cup, if there is a makers mark or symbol. This sword sure looks Spanish, possibly from the XVII cwntury ... in principle with a Solingen blade. |
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#3 |
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Thank you fernando ,Yes there is a symbol ,a boat for me a three-masted boat?
Have you seen the second one I just posted? best Jean-luc |
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#4 | ||
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... But having marks is always an added value, in any case. Quote:
Both great acquisitions ![]() |
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#5 | |
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I had A look in your sword I can see that I have one "ring" you don't have . See atached pictures. Best Jean-Luc |
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#6 | |
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#7 |
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On this interesting ivory hilt cuphilt, the 'IN MENE' is an often used phrase or wording on German blades which in essence means 'in mind'.
The ship marking is most interesting, especially with this apparent three masted configuration. A marking of a simple ship with sail and single mast was known to have been used by Clemens Kueller (Koller) 1675-1715 (noted p.143 Bezdek). I am wondering if that might have evolved from the mark of a very stylized ship under the capital letter 'M' from mid 16th c, Milan. This is described in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962, p.361) and stated the connection to Clemens Kueller from such mark and on the rapier of Heinrich Julius c. 1585. There is obviously a discrepancy in the period (by a century!) but this is the only 'ship' use in markings found. I did find instance of the use of the 'ship' as an early Christian symbol representing the 'barque of St. Peter' It is also interesting to note that the duchy of Milan was under control of Spain until the Spanish War of Succession (1701-14) which accounts (along with other Spanish provinces in Italy) for the profound connections between Italy and Spain in these swords. The oblate pommels were a feature common on these c. 1660s+. Nothing concrete, but interesting clues as to the period and details on this rapier. |
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#8 | |
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#10 | |
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Looking to This FALCHION (plate 110 ) with a M in a ship I have thought few minutes that this three-masted boat could be a boat with a M ON the top but looking more closer I have no doubt that it is three-masted boat. Best Jean-Luc |
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#12 | |
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I often forget that swords in these times were intended for use in life threatening circumstances (looking more at historical factors) and that not only were they kept serviceable, but such custom features, blade shortening and sharpening etc. were regular requirements. |
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#13 | |
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Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th November 2016 at 06:51 AM. |
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#14 | |
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![]() Still in Jean-Luc's example you manage to fold your forefinger around the ricasso behind the cup, a traditional position, and your thumb locking in that 'extra' ring. Can you hold dreaming ? . |
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#15 |
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Exactly! Who can forget the many discussions trying to figure out the mysteries of the small tulwar grip sizes on Indian swords and the so called 'Indian ricasso' on the blade near hilt. It seems it was finally noted about the European swordsmanship manner of wrapping finger around quillon.
Just as with the tulwars, it does seem the grip area on these rapiers were often quite small relative to the hand size, so these kinds of adjustments were understandable, unless ya had real small hands. |
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#16 | |
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#17 | |
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Well observed, and good insight toward these situational matters in cuphilts. As you say, the Indian situation was far more 'standardized' as clearly the general size of Indian hands was of course smaller as a rule. This was indeed so much so that even British production of swords for native forces had 'Indian' pattern regulation swords with smaller hilts . |
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#20 | ||||
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#21 | |
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As well noted by Philip, this cup hilt does seem to have been afforded some custom or commissioned attention, and the undulating (flamberge) blade something of a novelty. While notably speculative, I would suggest that these kinds of blades are typically regarded as more of a parade or ceremonial type feature, and that such blades are recorded in various Biblical instances, in guarding the 'Gates of Paradise'. This is sometimes associated with Masonic regalia such as the 'Tylers' sword which is often recorded as 'a wavy blade'. Just a suggestion OK. Many Spanish military orders of course employed these kinds of symbolism. |
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#22 |
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As i recently came across with an example in a local fellow collector and will also refer the collection where the above posted sword came from, waving blades in cup hilts (and sail hilts) are not so uncommon; and with the same typical inscriptions as those straight ones: IN MENE, IN SOLINGEN, PUGNO PRO PATRIA, CROSS AND ORB symbol; even some of them rather lenghty, so in line with the same operational attitude.
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#23 | |
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Here Jim,
This may not have anything ... or everything to do it. Tirri depicting a talwar with a hilt having its pommel removed to accomodate a 'larger' hand. Larger than what ? . |
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#26 | |
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Of course......Tirri!!! To add to the conjecture on the Indian hilt/hand size conundrum: Notes from Burton, and other cited in "Hindu Arms & Ritual" 2004, Elgood, footnote #85 (p.297); "...the personal weapons of Sivaji were preserved at Satara and Kolhapur after his death in 1680. Grant Duff in "Notes of an Indian Journey" (1876) described the worship of the Bhawani at Satara as did Burton in 'Sword' (1884) who recorded a Genoa blade of great length and fine temper though it is not clear whether he saw it himself. He cites a Mrs Guthrie who did see it, saying it was a fine Ferrara blade, four feet in length, with a spike upon the hilt to thrust with'. She also noticed THE SMALLNESS OF THE GRIP. It seems there are no real sound answers on this, and while the notion of physical hand size being a factor in grip size, there is not a consensus as to how consistant such instances might apply. I have seen a tulwar from the Northwest Frontier which has provenance it was used in this manner, with no disc. It was captured by a British officer in 1930 from an Afghan warrior, and was among his other memento's shown to me when I interviewed him in the 90s. It was said in other research on Afghan weapons, that the physical stature of tribesmen of these regions, was typically larger than that of the Hindu's to the south. This was not documented but in personal communications. Thank you for the follow up Fernando. Jim |
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#27 |
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I thought I'd add a data point to this thread in the form of this rapier I recently came across on a Spanish collector's site with a similar thumb ring.
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#28 |
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Sorry for necrotizing this old post. I hope I am not being too remedial by stating that removing the pommel would also allow for more wrist movement and reach. Tulwar hilts to me feel like they are designed for cutting are distances very close to user. Operating like giant butcher knives at distances around 24", 60 cm vs a Portuguese rapier blade that likes distances closer to 36", 90cm or more.
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#29 |
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Here is an explanation of gripping a tulwar hilt. 1:30-1:48 https://youtu.be/hjkj6Umgjs8?t=90
Is this the gospel or an apologist? I will let you all decide PS 2:20-2:26 shows the arc of a tulwar cut. Last edited by Interested Party; 10th August 2024 at 06:42 PM. Reason: Incomplete thought |
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