'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[urbanspaceman]

Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers:

Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge:
"James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley."

History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money.

You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect.

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

Thomas Gill's father was a maker of fine tools and files, Thomas continued that business before branching out to sword making. He was also quite an innovator so there is a fair chance he was partially self-taught since he would have an excellent understanding of the base metal working skills.

[Hotspur]

I only have one of my own. This seems to be the largest assortment in one place but I think we need to better sort the pile by rose variety, then common (which is a complicated description of its own).

A for instance here, Schnitzler&Kirschbaum, furnishing swords. Supplying swords. Producing swords. K&S, Kirshbaum&Shimmelbusch producing swords. Runkle, producing, etc, ad nauseam. Langham has regarded the matters somewhat the same. How much actual work was going on in house?

There are two different S&K 'roses' in this thread. What should that tell us?

I still think the adopted 'rose' jargon regards the various massive forge complexes supplying blades and foundries supplying castings. An edit to consider that maybe we are looking at the B&G artists themselves, labeling their work.



The W. on a blade speaks volumes to me but it is an entirely different discussion. Another link in a chain answering a question for me (re; Widmann). Yup, that's German work

Lots of nice piccies, I'll post my one (listen, no one likes their baby regarded as ugly)

Cheers
GC

[Hanger1]

Hello, I am a new member and also posted this one sword with another in my recent, original thread to ask for help. However the one blade fits well with this discussion and the request for other marked blades, potentially Solingen. This sword has a mystery hilt on it, and then has the blade with the etchings/engravings.

I have struck out with my other posted thread thus far, so maybe more people will see it again here. Thanks all.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Hanger1

I have struck out with my other posted thread thus far, so maybe more people will see it again here. Thanks all.

Hello Hanger, that's a nice late 18th Century sword you have there. Difficult to attribute to any particulare nation as the markings are fairly typical for the time.

The only thing I can add is that according to M. Petard and Blondieau, the 'petite montmorency' moniker came into use in the late 19th Century and broadly applies to a type of sword that was popular in France between 1788 and 1800, based on the style of blade that looked like a smaller version of the Montmorency Dragoons' sword.

[Radboud]

In keeping with this thread I recently came across a most interesting Spanish sword. Described as a Spanish light cavalry sabre it is marked with the typical Solingen style decorations and cartouche, has a 'Rose' on the spine however it is also marked Toledo Ano 1823.

This is historically interesting because it coinsides with the restoration of Toledo as a sword manufacturing base and it shows that some of their products used imported Solingen made blades. But most interstingly, it gives us a fixed date.

[Jacenty]

I will add pictures of my spade to the discussion.
It is a French sword, originally, royal protection mod. 1780 by Louis XVI. Manufactured between 1787 and 1805. A regulation one, used by the French Guards of the Revolutionary and First Empire period of Napoleon I., infantry and cavalry officers. At the hilt the punch "king's head" - Solingen Brothers Weyersberg.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hanger1

Hello, I am a new member and also posted this one sword with another in my recent, original thread to ask for help. However the one blade fits well with this discussion and the request for other marked blades, potentially Solingen. This sword has a mystery hilt on it, and then has the blade with the etchings/engravings.

I have struck out with my other posted thread thus far, so maybe more people will see it again here. Thanks all.

With European sabers of this period, it is hard to pinpoint the nationality of the ubiquitous stirrup hilts which fall outside the 'regulation' patterns known. The style of the celestial symbols suggest of course mid to end of 18th century and possibly Austro Hungarian, or perhaps of course French. The French army had strong presence of Hungarian forces in their ranks, further popularizing the 'hussar' phenomenon in cavalry fashion.
While Solingen used these kinds of celestial groupings on blades, these were also used in Styrian application as well as French (especially in Nantes).

[Alex.K]

Hello, I have a sword which was given to me several years ago and based on several posts I assume it is a Solingen sword. Amongst several etching on the sword there is a Half Moon and a Dragon. Can anyone help identify these marking with respect to who the end user(s) were.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Alex.K

Can anyone help identify these marking with respect to who the end user(s) were.

Hello Alex, as I've said earlier on one of your other posts showing this sword, I really love the blade on it. Unfortunately the decorations are of the generic Solingen 'talismanic' style popular before the end of the 18th-century, that are not attributable to any specific unit or end user. I've seen them on a number of different blades, mounted on hilts from various countries.