Arrow in Scroll makers mark?

[Radboud]

Hello, I have recently aquired this French grenadier officers sabre dating to about 1788 and 1800. It's loosely in the petite montmorency style despite having an unfullered blade (the 'montmorency' moniker is a late 19th century collectors term, with all the associated flaws that come with it).





It's a fairly plain sword, as far as swords of this style go, but the blade has the flaming bomb emblem to match the guard, which is a nice touch.





But what I'm intrigued about is this scroll pierced by an arrow mark on the blades' spine. I believe it is the makers' mark and I'm sure I've seen it before, but for the life of me I can't find a reference for it in my books. Has anyone else seen this mark before?

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting,
While notes are not at hand presently, and at the risk of sounding fanciful, it seems this type mark had to do with the so called 'Caissagnard' style blades which were popularly fashioned in Nantes. These typically had motif and devices associated with magic, occult and talismanic symbolism, and this 'arrow' device I believe was among these kinds of symbols.
It seems references by Buigne had similar shown in illustrations but cannot recall offhand.

Hopefully others of course more well versed in these topics will respond with perhaps better answers, but I do recall seeing these same marks as shown, and they had nothing to do with makers marks. It does seem worthy of note that this location on blade spine was typically the location for makers names.

[corrado26]

The decoration on the blade, the "burning grenade" is made at the Klingenthal factory and to be found on grenadier sabres M 1767 produced in Klingenthal. So the decoration of the spine has certainly nothing to do with Nantes.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent information Udo! You are always the master of the markings, cyphers and esoterica on European arms. As I am not particularly familiar with French swords, this information on the Klingenthal marking of the flaming bomb as for grenadiers is valuable to know.

However, as noted in OP, this device is on the face of the blade, along with the word grenadier as seen in the image shown, but the device I was referring to is on the blade spine.
If I might share the reason behind my suggestion:

While I am not well versed in French swords per se', I have studied much of the esoterica of blade markings and motif that seems to have prevailed in much of Europe particularly in the 18th century. Much of this has to do with the magic and occult symbolism which evolved in Eastern Europe during late 17th c. using cosmological symbols familiar in astrology such as moon, stars and sun, as well the oriental themes such as turbaned figures.
These types of symbolism expanded across Europe on blade decoration, and with the growing interest in mysterious esoterica including Enochian following and Martinism in France, involving angelic communication, these types of symbolism began incorporating into these themes.

In France in the 18th century, as Masonic systems were developing , the nobility became insatiably intrigued by magic and mysterious exotica, thus the evolution of these various blade decoration themes, with Nantes being a key location for these blades.

As this curious marking is on the blade spine, and corresponds to some of the marking devices seen in plates in Buigne, which are remarkably similar to others using arrows and these types of occult motif, it seemed possible this was a variation.

In the symbolism, in my opinion, the arrow in various arrangements might represent the cherbim, whose weapon is a bow and arrow, and might align with the angelic lore and mystery favored in the 18th century, especially in France.

While many of course will regard these suggestions, and of course the actual practice of so marking these blades, these notions and beliefs were very real in these times. I believe it is not necessary to believe in these things personally, but it is important to understand what people placing these symbolic motif on blades believed to understand what is represented.

I hope my as usual drawn out explanation will not be seen as a lecture, but simply support for my theory. I have indeed seen other 'bow and arrow' variations in these 'Nantes' type motif. Hopefully I can find some illustrations and even better if anyone out there has an example with such markings.

I would note, this is an excellent example of grenadiers saber, and with these markings, all the more intriguing.

[corrado26]

In addition to my above post I added two drawings by Aries, Grenadier Sabres of 1767, two versions of 1770 and 1780 and produced by the Klingenthal factory. I also looked for this blade with the particular spine of an arrow but could not find such a blade by either at Aries, L'Hoste or Bugné.

[Jim McDougall]

It does seem like the 'ARROW' theme occurs in some variation in blade motif but mostly on private swords such cuttoe/hangers where these kinds of themes were extremely popular, especially in France.

Possibly this is why the ARROW theme devices dont show up in Aries which is focused on military swords, though the book I have (not at hand) by Buigne & Lhost does deal with occult themes on private swords.

The images are found in notes.....(my terrible artwork) on a 'pandour' type cuttoe mid 18th c. the motif in orientalist style but note the device with arrows and fletching connected to what appears a bow.

The page from L'host and Buigne (title not available yet) at bottom of page are the scroll type devices added at blade spine in some of these swords, and note similarity to the device in question with arrow. These blades are notably, according to these authors, associated with Caissagnard, in Nantes.

[Radboud]

Thank you for the images out of Aries, Corrado, I have L’Hoste and Blondieau but unfortunately not Aries.

Looking at those images of the Grenadier m1767, the blade looks remarkably similar to mine; almost as they came from the same source. I think we can be confident that the blade on my sabre was modelled on the m1767.

[adrian]

But what I'm intrigued about is this scroll pierced by an arrow mark on the blades' spine.

Balance the sword to see if the 'arrow' has anything to do with its point of balance, either at its arrow-head or its mid-point.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by adrian

Balance the sword to see if the 'arrow' has anything to do with its point of balance, either at its arrow-head or its mid-point.

That's a good suggestion, I hadn't considered that. Although the balance point is at about 140mm so not close to the mark. Also it's quite an eloborate detail to show the balance point.

[Jim McDougall]

In the illustrations I posted, some of these kinds of 'squiggle' marks, clearly on the spine of the sword blade have a strange resemblance to the arrow mark on the example posted.
With this suggestion in mind, what could be the meaning of these types of marks without the arrow?

For reference, it is my post #6, the three figures at bottom of the page.

[Radboud]

Hello Jim, the three figures from the page in L'Hoste's book "Armes Blanches Symbolisme Inscriptions" are commonly referred to as "Solingen Roses" and seem to appear on many Solingen produced blades between about 1780 and 1830.

There's a lot of variation in these and unfortunately the meaning of them is unknown. But my anicdotal observations suggests that they become less complex over time until they disappear.

You will recall we have discussed these in the past and I posted a thread about them here: 'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Hello Jim, the three figures from the page in L'Hoste's book "Armes Blanches Symbolisme Inscriptions" are commonly referred to as "Solingen Roses" and seem to appear on many Solingen produced blades between about 1780 and 1830.

There's a lot of variation in these and unfortunately the meaning of them is unknown. But my anicdotal observations suggests that they become less complex over time until they disappear.

You will recall we have discussed these in the past and I posted a thread about them here: 'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

Thank you! That was indeed an amazing thread, and exactly the context I was thinking of in viewing this arrow mark. I had entirely forgotten the Solingen rose aspect, and it seems very much in similar convention with the arrow which seems to fall more in the Nantes motif's than the Solingen versions. My main objective was to illustrate these esoteric occult themes used on blades in these times.

While I always appreciate suggestions and thinking outside the box, as obviously I do that a great deal, the idea of the arrow having any pragmatic solution such as point of balance etc. does not seem to fit considering the other markings on spines such as the Solingen rose.
Thanks again for posting that thread, I had forgotten how intense and useful that discussion was.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you! That was indeed an amazing thread, and exactly the context I was thinking of in viewing this arrow mark. I had entirely forgotten the Solingen rose aspect, and it seems very much in similar convention with the arrow which seems to fall more in the Nantes motif's than the Solingen versions. My main objective was to illustrate these esoteric occult themes used on blades in these times.

I tend to agree with Corrado, that this arrow and occult icongraphy in general aren't specific to Caissagnard or Nantes the region. Caissagnard just stands out as he was quite consistent with the three designs used on blades that can be attributed to his business.

You raise a good point that the arrow bound in a scroll is quite a symbolic motif. It would be wonderful to learn who put it there and what special meaning (if any) was attributed to it.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

I tend to agree with Corrado, that this arrow and occult icongraphy in general aren't specific to Caissagnard or Nantes the region. Caissagnard just stands out as he was quite consistent with the three designs used on blades that can be attributed to his business.

You raise a good point that the arrow bound in a scroll is quite a symbolic motif. It would be wonderful to learn who put it there and what special meaning (if any) was attributed to it.

I agree as well, and as you noted in our previous discussions that these occult symbolisms were not specific to Nantes, nor Caissagnard, who was but one of the artisans there who popularized these motifs. As often the case, as he was apparently one of the most notable or prevalent, his name became somewhat associated with the style and often used collectively as such.

The arrow in the scroll as I noted was only similar among other cases using this angelic trope in the convention of these kinds of occult motifs. Similar conventions were well known in Eastern Europe with what became known as the 'Transylvanian knot' with occult devices on the blades. We know that in mid 18th century to latter, influences from these regions, the hussars and pandours deeply influenced western Europe.

We cannot likely ever know exactly who placed this device as shown, but it seems compellingly associated with the occult conventions to do with angelic communication and talismanic imbuement, perhaps the cherubim symbolism with their use of the bow and arrow.

What is significant to me is the styling as a flourish on the spine of the blade similar to the Solingen rose, but with more direct occult association.

These examples of otherwise regulation style military swords, but with subtle decoration associated with these occult motif are fascinating, as they reflect just how much these kinds of esoterica influenced these forces.

In my view this takes a sword for a grenadier to another level, with far more intrigue than those with regularly marked blades.