Indonesian spear with brass blade

[Sajen]

I own already long this Indonesian spear with a brass blade. I never have seen before a spear from Indonesia with a brass blade and frankly said I have no clue from where it originate. So all comments are very welcome!
Overall 163,5 cm (shaft maybe shortened), collar/ferrule 16 cm, blade 22,5 cm.

[milandro]

interesting, this is really brass, not bronze, so its function and purpose must have been absolutely ceremonial (if not decorative) because if bronze can actually be used as a true weapon, brass hasn't got the same hardness.

Indonesia has well known bronze ceremonial axes, I don't know if this tradition has, at some point, given origin to something like your tombak (funny enough the word tombak derived from Tembaga also means a brass alloy....)


I see on line (for sale) brass " spears" very different from yours apparently classified as Majapahit period and I see Balinese Brass spears (also very different from yours).


I have seen brass recongs made in Atjeh and this being a very famous place where they mande all manners of weapons may be a more or less educated guess

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, the word "tombak" came into Malay & also probably Kawi, thence Old Javanese, from the Sanscrit "tamra" = "copper".

There are many ways in which "tamra" can be understood in Sanscrit, & the idea of "copper" does not only apply to the metal.

For example, in the Puranas "tamra" is a reference to the lingga of Aditya (present day usage, arc. "Adityas"), which is synonymous with Surya, the Sun.

The spelling "tombak" is Malay & BI, the Javanese spelling is "tumbak".

The word "tembaga" is clearly from the same Sanscrit root word.

Separate derivations from the same root, but probably not from the same understanding of that root.

In the Early Classical Period of Jawa, bronze weapons were probably used in blood sacrifice, as they were in India, notably in the Horse Sacrifice. I have a relatively recent Javanese brass keris, & I have seen & handled archaic bronze Javanese blades.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

interesting, this is really brass, not bronze, so its function and purpose must have been absolutely ceremonial (if not decorative) because if bronze can actually be used as a true weapon, brass hasn't got the same hardness.

Indonesia has well known bronze ceremonial axes, I don't know if this tradition has, at some point, given origin to something like your tombak (funny enough the word tombak derived from Tembaga also means a brass alloy....)


I see on line (for sale) brass " spears" very different from yours apparently classified as Majapahit period and I see Balinese Brass spears (also very different from yours).


I have seen brass recongs made in Atjeh and this being a very famous place where they mande all manners of weapons may be a more or less educated guess

I guess it's bronze and not brass, you're correct, brass would be too "soft"!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually, the word "tombak" came into Malay & also probably Kawi, thence Old Javanese, from the Sanscrit "tamra" = "copper".

There are many ways in which "tamra" can be understood in Sanscrit, & the idea of "copper" does not only apply to the metal.

For example, in the Puranas "tamra" is a reference to the lingga of Aditya (present day usage, arc. "Adityas"), which is synonymous with Surya, the Sun.

The spelling "tombak" is Malay & BI, the Javanese spelling is "tumbak".

The word "tembaga" is clearly from the same Sanscrit root word.

Separate derivations from the same root, but probably not from the same understanding of that root.

In the Early Classical Period of Jawa, bronze weapons were probably used in blood sacrifice, as they were in India, notably in the Horse Sacrifice. I have a relatively recent Javanese brass keris, & I have seen & handled archaic bronze Javanese blades.

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your explanation! Am I correct that the tomak isn't Javanese?

Regards,
Detlef

[milandro]

except it doesn't really look like bronze but more brass

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

except it doesn't really look like bronze but more brass

The seller has cleaned the spear point because he thought it's from iron and was very surprised that it isn't! But I don't have any experience of what polished bronze looks like!?

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

A short google research for polished bronze!

A work of art inside the council of Europe in Strasbourg.

[A. G. Maisey]

Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42

The Javanese spelling of "tombak" is "tumbak", it is the same word with the same meaning, but one of the vowels has been Romanised in a different way.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42

The Javanese spelling of "tombak" is "tumbak", it is the same word with the same meaning, but one of the vowels has been Romanised in a different way.

My question was probably worded incorrectly, I meant whether the tombak/tumbak that started this thread is Javanese? I doubt this!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I do not know with any certainty, but overall, it does not feel Javanese.

[kino]

A very nice spear Sajen. I also have never seen a brass bladed Indonesian spear. Thanks for sharing.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not know with any certainty, but overall, it does not feel Javanese.

Thank you Alan, I am with you. I strongly suspect a Sumatran origin.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kino

A very nice spear Sajen. I also have never seen a brass bladed Indonesian spear. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you Albert! That's the beauty of collecting and exploring, even after years you always see something you've never seen before!

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

I see some similarity in the blade of this keris.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=19

I also remember from reading the Buru Quartet that an assassination was planned using a non-ferrous bladed weapon.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42

Alan thank you. That's been my experience that bronze is softer than brass, and brass is more brittle than bronze. That's why you see more bronze cannons vs brass ones for centuries.

I wonder if the use of brass is similar for Indonesians as it is for Philippine weapons - talismanic and for warding off evil spirits.

[chmorshuutz]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually, the word "tombak" came into Malay & also probably Kawi, thence Old Javanese, from the Sanscrit "tamra" = "copper".

There are many ways in which "tamra" can be understood in Sanscrit, & the idea of "copper" does not only apply to the metal.

For example, in the Puranas "tamra" is a reference to the lingga of Aditya (present day usage, arc. "Adityas"), which is synonymous with Surya, the Sun.

The spelling "tombak" is Malay & BI, the Javanese spelling is "tumbak".

The word "tembaga" is clearly from the same Sanscrit root word.

Separate derivations from the same root, but probably not from the same understanding of that root.

In the Early Classical Period of Jawa, bronze weapons were probably used in blood sacrifice, as they were in India, notably in the Horse Sacrifice. I have a relatively recent Javanese brass keris, & I have seen & handled archaic bronze Javanese blades.

Interesting, Tagalog also has this term "tumbaga" in old dictionaries, referring to copper, can also be used for mix of gold and copper.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by chmorshuutz

Interesting, Tagalog also has this term "tumbaga" in old dictionaries, referring to copper, can also be used for mix of gold and copper.

No great wonder, Tagalog is a Malay language!

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Battara

Alan thank you. That's been my experience that bronze is softer than brass, and brass is more brittle than bronze. That's why you see more bronze cannons vs brass ones for centuries.

Quite the opposite

Bronze is harder than brass and more brittle than brass.


https://www.thinmetalsales.com/blog/...jects%20better.


"....There isn’t a particular advantage to using brass or bronze. It depends on the project you’re undertaking. Bronze is harder and therefore has often been used on ships and fittings. However, it’s more brittle. Brass is more malleable, on the other hand, and more easily manipulated, which is why it serves as decorative projects better. ...."



Bronze spears are of course " common" in the classic world and one can certainly make a usable and very sharp bronze weapon

see this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAFz7UeVm4E


apparently in the Javanese bronze era there were, along with the aforementioned bronze axes, also bronze spears

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...q&opi=89978449


"....During the Japanese occupation W. Rothpletz found on the Plateau of Bandung in Java a large number of fragments of clay moulds for axes, spear-heads and bracelets, which prove that in Proto-Historic times such objects were actually manufactured in the locality and were not imported from abroad, as is often believed...."


this is a GREEK bronze spear at the Metropolitan museum

[A. G. Maisey]

Milandro, I have for many years maintained that as a general principle, it is not difficult to provide an answer, however, it can be extremely difficult to phrase a question so that a supportable answer must be provided.

In this current discussion the question arose that dealt with the comparative hardness of brass & bronze.I provided an answer that is generally accepted within the metal trades, however, that answer is a poor answer to an even poorer question.

If we wish to compare the hardness of bronze & brass we need to specify firstly the analysis of each material, in other words, the percentage of the various metals used to produce the brass sample, & the percentage of the various metals used to produce the bronze sample. Additionally it is probably advisable to specify the hardness test that is to be used & the conditions under which the test is to be conducted.

In my post #9 I stated this:-
" Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42".

I abbreviated my response because I did not want to write a 5000 word paper on this subject, I gave a simple, incomplete response that encapsulated the trade understanding of this matter, an understanding that has probably been formed because of the overall availability of particular alloys of both materials.

In fact, testing can be arranged that will show brass to be both harder & softer than bronze, the range of hardness for brass on the Rockwell Scale is 55 to 73, the range of hardness for bronze on the Rockwell Scale is 40 to 420.

Bronze alloys do display one feature that can cause a misunderstanding of its hardness, & this is that bronze can tolerate a greater external force than brass, but once again, that is a function of the particular alloy of bronze that is under examination.

Here is a link that will support the opinion that brass is harder than bronze, but as I have stated, that is a general understanding amongst those who work with these metals.

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/me...ethods-scales/

In respect of the concept of an Indonesian "Bronze Age".

The available evidence suggests that in the islands now known as "Indonesia" there was no distinct "Bronze Age", nor was there a distinct "Iron Age" , both technologies developed together & within the same time frame.

See Van Heekeren:- "The Bronze-Iron age of Indonesia".

[milandro]

well, obviously , there are arguments to be made in both directions.

[A. G. Maisey]

I tend to disagree that that this is a matter for any kind of argument, but it is a matter which needs to be understood and which deserves to have statements that deal with the characteristics of these two materials expressed in specific terms.

When we are specific there can be no argument, because in the presence of clear evidence there can be no variation in opinion.

EDIT

I've just noticed, that last google link is to van Heekeren, I did not know this book was online, its worth a read.

[Tim Simmons]

The spear look really nice. Cool lines. I think too question how effective a bronze or brass spear is without knowing the the alloying is a bit in the air. Possibly how armoured the target is may be relevant but look at the the plain palm wood spears from much of the world able to kill an opponent.

[asomotif]

Interesting to see how this discussion gets lost in the bronze / brass issue.

Bronze or brass, this was made in a period and an area where laminated iron was very common. So why this material ?

I do not know.

I have a similar spear with a bronze / brass spearhead, I bought it years ago with 2 others. the entire lot was sold as spears from Borneo.

It must be in the attic. I will try to take some pictures, but it is very similar to this one.

[A. G. Maisey]

Perhaps metals other than iron were used because of availability, & because of simplicity.

Just as all bronze is not equal, & all brass is not equal, & all irons are not equal.

Laminated iron is quite expensive to produce.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Interesting to see how this discussion gets lost in the bronze / brass issue.

Bronze or brass, this was made in a period and an area where laminated iron was very common. So why this material ?

I do not know.

I have a similar spear with a bronze / brass spearhead, I bought it years ago with 2 others. the entire lot was sold as spears from Borneo.

It must be in the attic. I will try to take some pictures, but it is very similar to this one.

Hi Willem,

Would be great to see your one, so a possible origin could be from Borneo.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The spear look really nice. Cool lines. I think too question how effective a bronze or brass spear is without knowing the the alloying is a bit in the air. Possibly how armoured the target is may be relevant but look at the the plain palm wood spears from much of the world able to kill an opponent.

Thank you Tim!

[asomotif]

Not very good pictures with artificial ight. but here it is.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Not very good pictures with artificial ight. but here it is.

Thank you Willem, indeed very similar!

Can I come to you and take what you have stored in the attic?

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Can I come to you and take what you have stored in the attic?

Uhm... that would make my wife very happy