The Dresden MONK'S GUN - a MYTH Revisited, and Finally CORRECTLY DATED: ca. 1525-30!

[Raf]

Just in case the link vanishes here are a few stills to complete the thread.

[Marcus den toom]

Sorry to burst the bubble, but this person makes forgeries for ebay.
He sells haquebuts poleguns etc as well.
The fact that this piece is:
-so well preserved after a odd 500 years
-only 10 cm in to the earth with "fresh" leaves covering the piece
-the fact he knows what this is for an "amateur"
-the real Monk's gun is just a curio, not a standard firearm of the time and finding another one in the earth like this is more than curious.....

Still a fun display and interesting if it where in "new" condition.

[fernando]

No fun for me; an hoax is always an hoax, no matter the context.
Many people may (are) deceived with this crap.
... Even Alexander, for one, has hesitated.

[Marcus den toom]

You are absolutely right Nando. even the best are sometimes decieved we all have that experience

If you are not sure about an item always ask for clear pictures with daylight to see patina, structure, how it was made etc. Or even better see it in person if it is possible.

[Andi]

I would not call the finder of the object in the film as an amateur archaeologist. It is probably a treasure hunter. Real (amateur) archaeologist will not only look and pull out metal objects, they will also look for other objects connected with the find e.g. for organic remains. For me the find is a hoax.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Andi

... For me the find is a hoax.

You are right in that this is not a finding; it was the hoaxer who hid the object in there. Just a staging to deceive the unwary.

[Flaregun]

Hello together,
my name is Claus and I joined this forum just to dig out this old thread.
I'm fascinated by this gun since I first saw it in Dresden about 20 years ago. Now I got the time to built a copy to answer the question about the possibility of using it. My first trials were disappointing - as mentioned in the thread the rasp ignition didn't work. I will improve the rasp next days and try again...
So I would like to know if anybody of you got new informations or understanding about this interesting part of gun-history? I have a fear that the Dresden monks gun is an attempt that never was in service due to several other problems as holding the ignition powder in the pan when attached to the belt. I'm curious about your opinions,
greetings from south-west Germany,
Claus

[Raf]

My conclusion is that the Monks gun was a generic term referring to an early rasp operated ignition system associated by tradition with the monk Berthold Schwartz . Of which the Dresden gun is a late and probably non functional example . Thierbach ( Die geschiliche Entwickelung der Handfeurwaffen - Dresden 1886-7) illustrates two other examples , one a brass cannon lock manually operated in the Zeunghaus , Berlin and a gun lock in Sigmaringen Museum actuated by a spiral spring. If anyone has a copy of this book or knows these examples it would be good to see illustrations.

[Raf]

The issue is that the Monks gun in the Rüstkammer museum Dresden frequently described and illustrated doesn’t actually work. Experimenters have confirmed that despite any amount pushing or pulling of the handle this doesn’t create enough friction to raise a spark .So why did someone go to the trouble of making such a mechanism if it was fundamentally flawed ? Is there something missing from our understanding of how it works and I think I may have found the answer.

In any friction operated firearm kinetic energy has to be stored such as in a spring and then quickly released to generate the friction needed to create a spark. The trouble is the monks gun relies entirely on human effort so how is the stored energy first created and then released ?

In the Rüstkammer gun the end of the serpentine wraps round a pin to the left of the lock plate and it is assumed bears on the bottom of the lock plate to elevate the serpentine when the adjustment screw is turned. An important detail missing from diagrammatic representations. In the drawing below this spring is shaped so as to press down on the end of the friction bar trapping the bar against the base of the lock plate. In the proposed sequence of operations the thing is primed and the tension screw adjusted to bring the pyrites into contact with friction bar and also control the pressure of this secondary spring on the friction bar. Pulling very hard on the operating handle eventually overcomes the downward pressure of this spring on the friction bar which is then released moving rapidly rearward hopefully having achieving a speed sufficient for ignition to occur. The adjusting screw determines when sufficient pulling effort has been generated and the point at which the friction bar is automatically released . The action is the same as pulling a cork out of a bottle . Muscular energy is created and stored in the effort of trying to pull the cork and this energy is quickly released as the cork leaves the bottle.

Irrespective of whether or not this is the way the Rüstkammer gun was designed to work it does show how a simple friction bar mechanism could be made to work relying on human energy alone . Despite the stylistic evidence of the barrel , which suggests a date 1520/30 I very much doubt this was when it was made The general feel of the thing doesn’t seem consistent with the early sixteenth century and in this form was impractical as a hand held firearm. My conclusion is that the Rüstkammer gun is a historisistic re creation to illustrate the principal of an early friction bar ignition system which by tradition was associated with the mythical monk , Bertoldt Swartz to whom is attributed the art of shooting with guns. Hence the generic name Monks gun.

It is possible to imagine how such a device might have been applied to a 15 th century hand cannon with a wooden tiller. The thing fired by pulling hard on a lanyard attach to the friction bar . Equally the friction wheel and cord operated firelighting device as illustrated in the Loffeholtz manuscripts might have been experimented with . In practice either system probably proved more trouble than it was worth but did encourage the idea that friction ignition firing systems could be applied to firearms . The friction wheel system proved more capable of automation hence the development of wheelock and the rest as they say is history.

[rysays]

Looking at the plans by Peter Kunz at https://www.feuerwaffen.ch/waffenkonstruktionen.htm, as well as the images of the original & several reconstructions- it seems the exact nature of the friction plate isn't well described. In only image that almost shows it is from the Rüstkammer, and there seem to be linear slots in the plate similar to that of a wheellock, rather than perpendicular cuts like a file or rasp (image below). I don't see any indication that the spring wraps around to put pressure on the bar, but it may further in. The style of rasp and its composition could greatly influence the reliability of the device, and may be why some reconstructions have been more successful than others.

[Raf]

Thank you for posting this new picture. You may be right and there is no evidence that the serpentine is not simply hinged as in Peter Kunz reconstruction. However it also shows two unaccountable errors which would undoubtedly affect its functionality. The friction bar is made both too wide and too short. The admittedly poor illustration attached shows the friction bar is less than 1/4 inch wide and has an effective frictional length of about 4 inches . Which corresponds to the frictional area of early Wheellock wheels. Also in the section nearest to the handle the two horizontal groves are well defined but the rest of the bar appear worn. This may be circumstantial evidence that it did actually work.

In my practical experience of the vagaries of wheel lock ignition I find it difficult to see how the required frictional velocity could have been achieved simply by pulling on the operating handle. Furthermore as far as I'm aware no one has made a reconstruction that proves it actually works in the way it is described.
However I may have over complicated the problem and it is just possible that a short lanyard tied to the handle pulled sharply overcoming the pressure of the pyrites on the friction bar might create a velocity sufficient for ignition.

[rysays]

Looking closely I believe the friction bar is a separate part from the pull ring, with a rivet just above the juncture. Possibly a repair, or because the bar is made from carburized sparking steel while the pull ring is a softer alloy. Interestingly I found images of another reproduction which was sold sometime last year, and the gunsmith specifies that he produced a greater spark using flint in the device (demonstrated in the third photo!). I obviously have no insight into the accuracy of this reproduction, but as flint generates sparks by cutting (rather than pyrite, which is cut) this could explain why the original bar is very worn. With this in mind I'm considering if the the pyrite which survives in the device could be an erroneous addition, and has misled its interpretation. Matchlock's stylistic ID to 1525-30 isn't far from the earliest written mentions of flint snaplocks, so I don't think it's too outlandish of an idea.

[Raf]

You are obviously aware that the principal of ignition in flint as opposed to pyrites ignition firearms is different but the myth persists that they are somehow interchangeable. It probably needs re stating that with flint the steel or frizen is the sacrificial element and that sparks result from tiny particles of steel stripped from the hardened steel . With pyrites it is the pyrites itself that is responsible for creating the sparks . The pyrites is heated by frictional contact with the steel . Tiny fragments of pyrites are detached and ignite through exothermic reaction with oxygen in the air. Substituting pyrites for flint in a wheelock will obviously produce a spark , after a fashion, but the serrations of the wheel are quickly destroyed . For this reason flint should never ever be used in a wheelock.

Your point about the antiquity of the snaplock is I think a valid one. In the past I have tried to argue, not always successfully that experiments with snapping locks probably occurred at the same time as the evolution of the wheelock and that the idea of a chronological evolution from matchlock to , wheelock , snaphaunce to flintlock is an over simplification. The point about the Dresden gun isnt I think about whether it sort of works but whether it worked well enough and reliably enough to be considered a viable firearm. If it did then this would support Blairs point that linear friction bar ignition systems were the logical antecedent of the wheelock and could have been developed in the fifteenth century.

[rysays]

I was actually browsing an online gallery of early wheellock tinder lighters a few days ago and noticed they all had flints inserted (with unfortunate damage to the wheels from doing so!). After also seeing the flint-fired reproduction & the abrasion you pointed out in the original bar, it gave me the idea that the pyrite may not be original. From what I understand, both flint & pyrite require a hardened steel plate to strike against, only the principle of spark generation is inverted as you described. I imagine a detailed microscope or xrf study of the bar & residues might identify what was originally used.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced of the design as a viable firearm, and agree with the opinion that it is more likely an experimental curiosity, noisemaker, or elaborate tinder lighter. From what I understand, the chronology of early ignition systems is obscured by trade secrecy & their near-immediate prohibition in the HRE & Italian states, which were also the centers of development & manufacturing. What I'm very curious about is the apparent existence of very early invoices from Braunschweig which mention friction locks in 1447? I don't have a copy of the relevant book "Das Kunsthandwerk der Büchsenmacher im Land Braunschweig", but would like to find the origin of such claims.

[Raf]

I managed to track down this clip from Thierbach which discuss the Monks gun in the context of other friction bar ignition systems. Could any kind person help with a translation as I can't get Google translate to do it?

[rysays]

Great find Raf, it seems to describe the monk's gun operating with pyrite as has been discussed, with linear & oblique cuts to the friction surface. Fig. 52 is a cannon lock from the 18th century with nearly identical construction, while 54 & 55 are spring driven friction bar systems from the 17th & 16th centuries respectively. This is what I gleamed using machine translation, and I can't find any opinions in the text regarding the efficacy of the device.

What I'm most curious about now is Fig.56 from that book, which shows an early 16th century lock where the friction surface is the segment of an arc. Functionally this would be the missing link between the linear bar & wheel, but not necessarily chronologically.