A result of ivory regulations ???

[Ian]

These two Burmese dha are beautiful examples of late 19th C Burmese crafts. The koftgari work on the blades is excellent, and the pictures show how finely cross hatched the blade was prepared for the silver to be applied. It is thought that this work was either done by highly skilled Indian craftsmen, or by Burmese who had trained under Indian masters.

It is distressing to see that neither has its hilt. The second example shows a remnant of the ferrule, and this has been deliberately and crudely cut so that the hilt could be removed.

I've seen several other high end dha that apparently have been mistreated similarly. These have all been in the last 6–9 months. What we are seeing here, I believe, is a response to worldwide restrictions on selling items containing ivory. Some marketers seem to believe it is better to damage a fine work of art to sell it for a meager sum than leave it intact.

The first one below sold for 70 GBP. The other did not receive a bid. What a waste of two lovely swords. No doubt one could rehilt these with silver and they would look fine (but would be expensive these days).

The sad thing is that any ivory on these swords would have been more than 100 years old and likely exempt from CITES regulations.

.

[Tim Simmons]

I would gift any ivory items I had rather than have this happen to them. Older collector now have a duty to pass the things on rather than see them vandalised.

[Sajen]

The second time that I see high quality weapons destroyed by cultural vandals!

[drac2k]

Please inform me how many elephants were brought back to life by this reckless destruction.

[corrado26]

These laws, which completely miss the intended goal, are the result when incompetents without any necessary training call the shots in an institution like the EU Parliament

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by corrado26

These laws, which completely miss the intended goal, are the result when incompetents without any necessary training call the shots in an institution like the EU Parliament

Agree with you Udo! But when I go to the States there are similar problems with antique ivory. And the two Burmese dhas had been auctioned in GB and I know that the law there is more bad as in the EU.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

I think there is a lot too much speculation as was to what hilts these blades had. Some were silver and ray skin over bamboo, others were silver and Niello.

Personally, I feel the speculation, and where discussions are turning to, will cause far more bluster and fluff than any good to the forum.

Nothing is going to change in this space, and just or unjust from a collectors point of view, or any speculation or discussion on the subject of what is not known for certain holds even less water within the current landscape.
This is just sensationalism for sensationalism sake and a rehash of the subject that has been broached here numerous times.

Live trade still happens. As recent as this week I have seen it on social media and other media. The issue is not going away.

Agree or disagree, we are all entitled to opinions, for me. I see ongoing speculations or even instances of it being removed by governing bodies, that it will do the community here no good at all.

[Ian]

Gav, I'm frankly surprised by your post. Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and you have expressed disagreement with statements here condemning some aspects of the attempts to diminish the trade in elephant ivory and other prohibited species. It's not clear to me how such statements do a disservice to collectors.

My concern is more with the opportunistic dealer who crudely removes a hilt to make a few dollars. Look at the second example shown below, where the crafted ferrule has been cut almost completely through with a pair of tin snips or similar tool, and then left hanging there. Crude and crass! Totally without a sense of the aesthetics of the piece and its craftsmanship. I agree that these things happen out of necessity in poorer nations where individuals are struggling to survive and antiques represent an opportunity to make a little money. That's more understandable. But this piece was offered at auction in Britain, a prosperous first world nation.

The title of this forum is Ethnographic Weapons. To me, that means items crafted in a traditional manner from traditional materials by those from the original culture. Sometimes these may contain prohibited materials (such as ivory). In my view, such cultural artifacts created before, say, 1970 and containing prohibited materials should be permitted to remain intact and be traded. Those made after that time should not be traded. However, the rules are very different. Nevertheless, there are exceptions, and we, as collectors, should be able to avail ourselves of those exceptions without undue burden. That is not the case, and I think people have a right (and obligation) to vent frustration at that situation because cultural items are being damaged or destroyed as a result of undue bureaucracy.

I don't think my views are harmful in any way to collectors here or as a whole. (Rant over)

[Gavin Nugent]

Ian,

Indeed, vent your frustration at the global situation and the hypocrisy that abounds in that space. Where these are concerned specifically, it is all speculation within.

You have ZERO idea about the who, what, how, and why these blades were presented to an auction without hilts that could be any manner of materials, the whole notion seem absurd without a crystal ball or a time machine with coordinates to get to when and where this happened.... Even the notion of tin snips, it is simply all speculation... surely the 3 question marks you used in the title, you must also have seen this as speculation which is only going to induce hype..

As for the diservices. Whilst not a direct POV to what I wrote, Lee knocked that nail on the head September last year in these pages, and it goes a LOT wider and deeper than that quick note.
If you want to know what is actually happening and how, and it's impacts, feel free to write me privately, and factually.

Gavin

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I think there is a lot too much speculation as was to what hilts these blades had. Some were silver and ray skin over bamboo, others were silver and Niello.
.

A lot of threads on the forum are largely speculation.
Where do you think this ... is from ?
How old is this ... ?

Hardly ever do I see someone refering to the autum Dha catalogue of 1832

These hilts could have been removed or harvested for other reasons.
Fact is that they are damaged and devalued by it which is a pity.

[thomas hauschild]

Yes a pitty.Newly in germany we have new laws about elephant ivory since a few month. Every trade ist strictly forbidden now. No matter if pieces are pre CITES or not.

I have around 10 pieces from a collector. Just grips and matching scabbards from badik, rencong and kris. That collector emigrates back from switzerland ( outside EU) and he wanted to save the rest of his collection. Customs pushed him to destroy these blades cause they defined them as „push-daggers“, which are forbidden items in germany.

A pitty

[gp]

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Yes a pitty.Newly in germany we have new laws about elephant ivory since a few month. Every trade ist strictly forbidden now. No matter if pieces are pre CITES or not.

I have around 10 pieces from a collector. Just grips and matching scabbards from badik, rencong and kris. That collector emigrates back from switzerland ( outside EU) and he wanted to save the rest of his collection. Customs pushed him to destroy these blades cause they defined them as „push-daggers“, which are forbidden items in germany.

A pitty

Sad this example but a piece of advise; one should not & never accept the word of a single customs officer just like that as being the one and only ultimate truth and being forced into something awfull like the above mentioned example!

Customs rules and regulations are not a matter decided by a single officer or the individual interpretation of a certain rule by that officer.
I am not saying at all, that the specific customs officer doesn't know his job...
but being a customs specialist, I can tell you that not all is defined and firm because just one person (or even his superior) says so! As there is more to it than meets the eye.

It is just an interpretation of the rule by an operational man or woman, who who is not actually a legislator / lawmaker or a lawyer !
Not wanted to disrespect and offend these officers who do an excellent job!

It takes too much time and knowledge of the subject to explain it into detail, but short & simple :

1. If one can state his case and substantiate this with proof, it can and will be be accepted by the customs. Customs specialist can fill you in with the details if you want to learn more.
Obviously you need to make a stronge case AND provide excellent professional proof that supports your case conform the customs regulations and legislation.

2. If # 1 still will produce a negative result, you should withdraw the import and look for an alternative legal way to proceed.
And believe me, there are plenty alternatives to import goods into the EU legally and be compliant with EU and local (the specific country's) legislation and thus in the above example have it legally be brought into Germany !

But never let someone convince you to destroy it !

Remember; cheep are there to be shaven...

And because one doesn't know the law, it doesn't mean there is a conspiacy going on or one meets with evil governmental forces, which are on a witch hunt !
They are all excellent intentions to avoid animals being killed for something stupid !

Let us as collectors not feed "das Gesundes Volksempfinden," / the "healthy feeling of the people" which is utterly subjective and ventilates feelings but does nor reflect the reality of the involved legislation...
and thus refrain from the blame game ! No disrespect to any forum members intended!☼

[Tim Simmons]

Just don't be silly they are now worthless . Move them amongst yourselves where you can. Unless you are a vandal and must sell out of the circle. For what little is left. Sad but that is the case shut.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Just don't be silly they are now worthless . Move them amongst yourselves where you can. Unless you are a vandal and must sell out of the circle. For what little is left. Sad but that is the case shut.

No need to be a defeatist as said it is complete legal to still have these kind of transactions.
Althoug some countries ( mostly in the anglosaxon world like to good ol' U S of A and Inglan) it is not easy ...
Even, sadly some overeager public servants do overreact, you do not take that for granted and still can import it.

If a police officer tells you to jump, you don't reply with "how high? " or do you....

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by gp

No need to be a defeatist as said it is complete legal to still have these kind of transactions.
Althoug some countries ( mostly in the anglosaxon world like to good ol' U S of A and Inglan) it is not easy ...
Even, sadly some overeager public servants do overreact, you do not take that for granted and still can import it.

If a police officer tells you to jump, you don't reply with "how high? " or do you....

Indeed they do reach beyond their scope at times.

I recently went through a seizure because of an overreacting overzealous official who had no concept of the laws they operate under nor any idea of customs exemptions for said items.

Still, there are even hoops to jump through when they get it wrong too. I may not have to ask how high, but I still need to jump.
I'm just grateful it's not my first rodeo and can bring to their attention the error of their ways... still, 4-5 weeks extra delay on already slow mail is hard to digest... meanwhile, illicit items enter borders every day while these distractions happen.

They just do their job, and all these discussions and comments by members ARE scanned and linked by AI, hence my previous comments that Ian seemed to disagree with, such discussions and notions like move them amongst yourselves are just painting targets on your backs, and are a disservice to the community

My best advise, seek proper approvals in writing where weapons and materials are concerned, and know the jurisdictions you operate in and through, both at a federal and state level. It alleviates a lot of issues and heart ache, and preserves the material culture, NOT see it destroyed through improper action.

So much can still be achieved through the right channels.

[Rick]

In Massachusetts it is legal to sell scrimshawed whales teeth. The caveat is that you are not supposed to send them anywhere out of our state. Eldred's auction house here sells a lot of whale teeth in some of their auctions.
After purchase what you do with them is your business I guess at least inside the US.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

In Massachusetts it is legal to sell scrimshawed whales teeth. The caveat is that you are not supposed to send them anywhere out of our state. Eldred's auction house here sells a lot of whale teeth in some of their auctions.
After purchase what you do with them is your business I guess at least inside the US.

I'd be crossing your Ts and dotting your Is Rick.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/natio...-species-parts

[Rick]

Most of the teeth are antique from the age of sail Gavin. I don't attend those auctions, the stuff is for the well-heeled to bid on. Massachusetts is the California of the east coast so the teeth I'm sure are vetted as to their age to comply with CITES regulations.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I'd be crossing your Ts and dotting your Is Rick.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/natio...-species-parts

I would add that i believe the link you have provided seems focussed on "unaltered pieces of a marine mammal". A scrimshaw tooth would no doubt fall under a different set of regulations.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

I would add that i believe the link you have provided seems focussed on "unaltered pieces of a marine mammal". A scrimshaw tooth would no doubt fall under a different set of regulations.

Just because one gets a tooth,scratches it's surface and rubs some soot in to the incisions, it does not then circumvent these policies.

There are other determining requirements to be met. It is governed by several other factors within these and other documents.

It is the source material that is governed, the onus lies with you to prove what is required.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

the teeth I'm sure are vetted as to their age to comply with CITES regulations.[/url]

One may assume so. Not a single CITES reference within the catalogue and careful wording in the T&Cs to absolve themselves from any risk or exposure.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Just because one gets a tooth,scratches it's surface and rubs some soot in to the incisions, it does not then circumvent these policies.

There are other determining requirements to be met. It is governed by several other factors within these and other documents.

It is the source material that is governed, the onus lies with you to prove what is required.

How does one prove to the authorities that the teeth shown in the auction catalogue that I posted a link to are actually antique pre-ban teeth Gavin?
Eldred's auction seems to have found a way to do this.

As I said Massachusetts is the California of the East Coast and I'm sure some of these articles don't have a hard and fast provenance.
This is a well-known auction house worldwide; I can't imagine that in my state a place such as Eldred's could get away with fakery.
There must be some way to prove the antiquity of whales' teeth. I have seen antique teeth done by contemporary artists for auction there.

I'd shrug but the emoji is verboten.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

How does one prove to the authorities that the teeth shown in the auction catalogue that I posted a link to are actually antique pre-ban teeth Gavin?

It is all outlined in the link provided and all other links within Rick.

With regards to within state, looking at what's been happening in that space, all eyes are on places like the auction house. I only see a few of the items with recorded provenance.
Whilst within state, all is currently OK, I suspect that when it comes to out of state buyers, know your laws.
I also expect the whale tooth exemptions locally will fall in line with Federal laws before long. The LONG overdue Elephant ivory and Rhino horn laws are on the doorstep locally, with sensible provisions within.
This was submitted in January 2023, chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/file:///C:/Users/user/Picture/S519.pdf
Joint Committee sat in November, https://www.mspca.org/animal_protect...n-trafficking/
The writing is on the wall where teeth are concerned locally, plain to see with what is noted and known.

From a well known dealers webpage in MA.
Antique Scrimshaw: inventory consists of (19th century/period): antique scrimshaw, antique sperm whale teeth, vintage scrimshaw work on antique sperm whale teeth, antique scrimshaw work on antique walrus tusks. Many of these items came from my private collection which have been collected or purchased over a 40 year period. Also under this category we have some vintage scrimshaw items. Note: regarding endangered species items. We are firm supporters of the US and CITES endangered species acts. Purchasers should familiarize themselves with the appropriate regulations both state and US federal, it is their responsibility. All necessary permits and certificates are the purchaser's responsibility. All sales consummated in MA. No international sale or purchasing of endangered species items.

[Gavin Nugent]

Item is back at auction...