Another sword; another challenge

fernando · 27th November 2023, 09:00 PM

Doesn't the hilt look Spanish ... Boca de Caballo and all ? Doesn't the punzon on the blade ricasso look Spanish, or at least in the Spanish (Toledo) fashion ? Yet it doesn't come in Palomares nomina. As it might have a different origin. Could it be a composite ? That decoration on the blade; what could it represent ? The pommel is the screwing type.
It would be so nice to have some comments on this one.

.

Radboud · 27th November 2023, 10:32 PM

Do you have a close-up of the thread on the tang? Looks quite fine and precise in the image shown.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2023, 02:48 AM

This is a total anomaly, and in risking a totally speculative assessment, the thing I think of is a Spanish 'pappenheimer' type weapon with saber blade which seems to be perhaps Styrian or S.German (by the fullering, decoration). This would be of course mid 17th c. contemporary with Pappenheimers as well as Spanish cup hilts, shell guards (margarite).

Perhaps this might have some connection to Spanish Netherlands ? (1556-1714).

The punzone on the tang does not appear in Palomares*, but is Spanish in manner. In Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015), p.142, a similar mark with C under crown in dotted cartouche is shown as Zamorane el Toledano, noted pre-1700.

This mark is the crowned C, but with what seems an S (?) enclosed. This could be a spurious 'Toledo' mark as used of course in Germany (Solingen and Munich) and this blade seems 18th c. .

In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) there are numerous cases of older hilts mounted with later blades, so these kinds of pairings are far from unknown.
I have a 1750-60s British basket hilt which was infantry used, but in 1783 they stopped carrying swords. The swords went into stores.
At some point later my example was refitted from the straight blade to a M1788 light cavalry saber blade....I have seen two others with this modification. It is hard to say what would prompt these changes, but personal favor or heirloom hilt to a more contemporary blade would seem plausible.

* corrected, the mark does appear in Palomares #94

Interested Party · 28th November 2023, 02:59 AM

Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?

fernando · 28th November 2023, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?

Herewith his chart on marks and names. I will send you two PDF's on Palomares (father and son) by email.

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fernando · 28th November 2023, 11:19 AM

Jim, thank you so much for your previous input

. I will duly process it myself and after pass word to the sword owner.
Zamorane el Toledano also appears in Palomares but, as you say, not properly the same thing.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2023, 02:21 PM

Fernando in seeing the nomina in larger size, I see #64 which comprises the son of the figure using 'C' and wonder if this might be a variant of the mark on the blade discussed ? Whatever the case, it is a distinctly Spanish punzone character...but unusual for less known makers mark to be used spuriously in Germany, Perhaps this blade is indeed Spanish? but then what period, as Toledo was all but defunct by late 17th c.

Could this maker have removed to Barcelona or in Basque regions nearer Bilbao? possible.Notable mounting of blades (typically Toledo of course) was done in towns near Bilbao, which was the departure port for finished swords and the reason these types of swords with such guard systems became colloquially known as 'bilbos'.

fernando · 28th November 2023, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando in seeing the nomina in larger size, I see #64 which comprises the son of the figure using 'C' and wonder if this might be a variant of the mark on the blade discussed ?...

I guess i am skeptical over that probability, Jim. But i wouldn't discard the spurious possiblity !

Victrix · 29th November 2023, 07:57 PM

I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip?

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2023, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip?

This is SPOT ON!
That style of blade decoration is indeed well known in Eastern Europe, and most notably on Hungarian blades, where I believe it may have to do with these kinds of occult esoterica known as 'the Transylvanian knot'. While exactly which device or motif this applies to, the entwined lattice type decoration may well pertain to a 'knot' in effect, perhaps referring to the esoteric decoration collectively.

Fernando, totally agree with the skeptical reference, and as always with spuriously applied devices and marks, pretty much anything is possible.

fernando · 30th November 2023, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip?

Thank you for your input, Victrix.
I am waiting for the owners confirmation on the sabre false edge; but i think you are certainly right. Actually i have handled this sword the other day, but i missed to check that part.

fernando · 30th November 2023, 05:49 PM

Thank you Jim, for the additional notes on the blade characteristics

.

fernando · 30th November 2023, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you for your input, Victrix.
I am waiting for the owners confirmation on the sabre false edge; but i think you are certainly right...

Yes, the owner has just confirmed that the blade last section has both sides sharp.

.

Interested Party · 1st December 2023, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I believe it may have to do with these kinds of occult esoterica known as 'the Transylvanian knot'. While exactly which device or motif this applies to, the entwined lattice type decoration may well pertain to a 'knot' in effect, perhaps referring to the esoteric decoration collectively.

Back in university while researching something else I remember reading about knotwork being protection spells in western Europe. I am sorry that I have absolutely no recollection of the source.

fernando · 1st December 2023, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Back in university while researching something else I remember reading about knotwork being protection spells in western Europe. I am sorry that I have absolutely no recollection of the source.

A pity !

werecow · 3rd December 2023, 01:31 PM

Is it me or does the grip resemble the ones found on later Espada de Ceñir, rather than either Bilbao / Boca de Caballo swords or Hungarian sabers?

fernando · 3rd December 2023, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Is it me or does the grip resemble the ones found on later Espada de Ceñir, rather than either Bilbao / Boca de Caballo swords or Hungarian sabers?

I take it that, the grip alone is rather common in Spanish (even Iberian) swords in general, cup hilts and all, made in turned wood. The Hungarian approach, being or not plausible, refers only to the blade.

fernando · 3rd December 2023, 03:00 PM

Curiously, the description of the example shown of "Espada de Ceñir" mentions that its ebony grip should be adorned with golden (twine) wire, which is absent in this example

" puño en madera de ébano gallonado y torzal dorado, ausente en este ejemplar".

27th November 2023, 09:00 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Another sword; another challenge Doesn't the hilt look Spanish ... Boca de Caballo and all ? Doesn't the punzon on the blade ricasso look Spanish, or at least in the Spanish (Toledo) fashion ? Yet it doesn't come in Palomares nomina. As it might have a different origin. Could it be a composite ? That decoration on the blade; what could it represent ? The pommel is the screwing type. It would be so nice to have some comments on this one. . Attached Images

28th November 2023, 02:48 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	This is a total anomaly, and in risking a totally speculative assessment, the thing I think of is a Spanish 'pappenheimer' type weapon with saber blade which seems to be perhaps Styrian or S.German (by the fullering, decoration). This would be of course mid 17th c. contemporary with Pappenheimers as well as Spanish cup hilts, shell guards (margarite). Perhaps this might have some connection to Spanish Netherlands ? (1556-1714). The punzone on the tang does not appear in Palomares, but is Spanish in manner. In Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015), p.142, a similar mark with C under crown in dotted cartouche is shown as Zamorane el Toledano, noted pre-1700. This mark is the crowned C, but with what seems an S (?) enclosed. This could be a spurious 'Toledo' mark as used of course in Germany (Solingen and Munich) and this blade seems 18th c. . In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) there are numerous cases of older hilts mounted with later blades, so these kinds of pairings are far from unknown. I have a 1750-60s British basket hilt which was infantry used, but in 1783 they stopped carrying swords. The swords went into stores. At some point later my example was refitted from the straight blade to a M1788 light cavalry saber blade....I have seen two others with this modification. It is hard to say what would prompt these changes, but personal favor or heirloom hilt to a more contemporary blade would seem plausible. corrected, the mark does appear in Palomares #94 Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th November 2023 at 02:26 PM.

3rd December 2023, 01:31 PM	#16
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 491	Is it me or does the grip resemble the ones found on later Espada de Ceñir, rather than either Bilbao / Boca de Caballo swords or Hungarian sabers? Attached Images

27th November 2023, 10:32 PM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Do you have a close-up of the thread on the tang? Looks quite fine and precise in the image shown.

28th November 2023, 02:59 AM	#4
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 464	Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?

28th November 2023, 11:19 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, thank you so much for your previous input . I will duly process it myself and after pass word to the sword owner. Zamorane el Toledano also appears in Palomares but, as you say, not properly the same thing.

28th November 2023, 02:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Fernando in seeing the nomina in larger size, I see #64 which comprises the son of the figure using 'C' and wonder if this might be a variant of the mark on the blade discussed ? Whatever the case, it is a distinctly Spanish punzone character...but unusual for less known makers mark to be used spuriously in Germany, Perhaps this blade is indeed Spanish? but then what period, as Toledo was all but defunct by late 17th c. Could this maker have removed to Barcelona or in Basque regions nearer Bilbao? possible.Notable mounting of blades (typically Toledo of course) was done in towns near Bilbao, which was the departure port for finished swords and the reason these types of swords with such guard systems became colloquially known as 'bilbos'.

29th November 2023, 07:57 PM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 695	I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip? Last edited by Victrix; 29th November 2023 at 07:59 PM. Reason: added bit at end

30th November 2023, 05:49 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jim, for the additional notes on the blade characteristics .

3rd December 2023, 03:00 PM	#18
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Curiously, the description of the example shown of "Espada de Ceñir" mentions that its ebony grip should be adorned with golden (twine) wire, which is absent in this example " puño en madera de ébano gallonado y torzal dorado, ausente en este ejemplar".