Two shamanic Tonkin knives

[Sajen]

Have won this two little knives by a german auction house. Me was told by an expert in this field that this are shamanic knives from the Tonkin area in Vietnam. Maybe someone else will be able to confirm this.
Both knives has antler handles of an unknown deer. The smaller one has a spatula similar blade from iron and has a dark patina, I only have removed carefully active rust. The collar is from silver. The bigger one has a blade from low grade silver alloy or a other metal, I am unsure by this. The collar is from the same metal and very nice embossed and the blade has naga or dragon engravings. Both blades are not made for cutting so an use by shamanic rituals seems nearby. When I look at them I think that both has a good age.
I post this knives for your enjoy but would also be very interested to know more about them, special for the real use. And of course I am curious to see similar ones. Just every comment and all informations are very welcome.

[Sajen]

Here some more pictures from the smaller one. It is nearly 23 cm long.

[Sajen]

And here some more from the bigger one. 29 cm long.

[VANDOO]

THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN TO THESE KNIVES ARE FROM CAMBODIA. THEY HAVE ANTLER HANDLES AND ENGRAVING ON THE BLADES BUT WERE NEWER. THESE ARE OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND OLDER EXAMPLES AND MAY BE CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AT LEAST THATS WHERE I WOULD START LOOKING FOR REFRENCES.
CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LAOS ECT ARE IN THAT REGION WHICH USED TO BE REFERRED TO AS INDO-CHINA AND THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMULAR TRIBES THRUOUT THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION. THERE ARE SOME OLD FORUM POSTS ON THE CAMBODIAN EXAMPLES FOR COMPARISON AND IT IS LIKELY SIMULAR KNIVES WERE FOUND THRUOUT THE REGION IN VARING QUALITY AND VALUE. YOUR EXAMPLES BEING OF THE MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND CLASS. THE DIFFERENT BLADE SHAPES MAY INDICATE THEIR USE OR NOT BUT THEY SURELY INDICATE THEY SERVED A DIFFERENT FUNCTION OR SHOWED A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE IN DESIGN AND DECORATION. GOOD LUCK

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN TO THESE KNIVES ARE FROM CAMBODIA. THEY HAVE ANTLER HANDLES AND ENGRAVING ON THE BLADES BUT WERE NEWER. THESE ARE OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND OLDER EXAMPLES AND MAY BE CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AT LEAST THATS WHERE I WOULD START LOOKING FOR REFRENCES.
CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LAOS ECT ARE IN THAT REGION WHICH USED TO BE REFERRED TO AS INDO-CHINA AND THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMULAR TRIBES THRUOUT THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION. THERE ARE SOME OLD FORUM POSTS ON THE CAMBODIAN EXAMPLES FOR COMPARISON AND IT IS LIKELY SIMULAR KNIVES WERE FOUND THRUOUT THE REGION IN VARING QUALITY AND VALUE. YOUR EXAMPLES BEING OF THE MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND CLASS. THE DIFFERENT BLADE SHAPES MAY INDICATE THEIR USE OR NOT BUT THEY SURELY INDICATE THEY SERVED A DIFFERENT FUNCTION OR SHOWED A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE IN DESIGN AND DECORATION. GOOD LUCK

Thank you Barry,

I have searched already but haven't found something similar! But anyway, thank you very much for comment!

Regards,
Detlef

[spiral]

Fascinating pieces!

What age where they sold as?

The antler is from Barking deer or Muntjak, I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts, It is also used on small knife hilts in Burma, Thailand & no doubt probably Vietnam & Cambodia as well. { All in the Natural range of the Deer.}

Spiral

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by spiral

Fascinating pieces!

What age where they sold as?

The antler is from Barking deer or Muntjak, I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts, It is also used on small knife hilts in Burma, Thailand & no doubt probably Vietnam & Cambodia as well. { All in the Natural range of the Deer.}

Spiral

Hello Spiral,

yes, when I have seen them first time I was fascinated as well. The auction house don't know something about them, they was described as India knives, 19th/20th century. But when I look to the antler I am sure that they has been in use for some decades.
Thank you for the hint of the deer origin, I have attached a picture of the Chinese Muntjak, found by google.

Regards,
Detlef

[russel]

Originally Posted by spiral

I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts

I envy you your Muntjac Karda, Spiral: they are high on my wish list!

Nice finds Detlef, I have an interesting little book about Muntjac in England:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16093592-muntjac

Thanks for sharing,

Russel

[Jim McDougall]

Detlef, thank you for sharing these very attractive knives, as well as for the perfect descriptions and excellent photography with details.
While I know very little on the weapons of SE Asia, I have always found the esoterica most interesting, so am looking forward to learning more on these as well.
Meanwhile I have taken some time to discover what I can, with emphasis on trying to confirm if these are indeed shamanic implements as suggested. It would seem of course quite likely as they are not sharpened, and it seems the antlers are something often associated with shamanic ritual .

Interestingly, I have seen American Indian knives using antlers in this manner for hilts, and it seems they were associated with chiefs or medicine men (indeed shamanic). I also recall from a book titled "The Mind in the Cave" discussion on shamans, and cave art images from France which showed prehistoric shamans wearing antlers . From anthropological POV it is fascinating to see these kinds of symbolic elements transmitted through so many cultures.

It would seem that Tonkin (North Vietnam) tribes may well be the provenance for these but clearly they could be from various tribes and regions throughout these SE Asian areas. Apparently the animist beliefs and rituals in Vietnam became absorbed into those of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism, and it is indicated that most of the shamanist duties were taken over by Buddhist priests ( "Lost Fighting Arts of Vietnam", Haha Lung, 2006) with the arrival of Chinese culture .

It may be presumed that these knives were used as ritual implements in much the same manner as the 'phurbu' (often termed 'ghost dagger') in Tibetan Buddhist ritual. These implements are used symbolically against malevolent forces and demons .

I found this link to 'Shamanic Arts of Vietnam' and possibly this site might offer more inroads into whether these actually are Vietnamese shamanic implements .

http://www.54traditions.com.vn/index...d=10&Itemid=15

Looking forward to more from others on these very nice acquisitions!

[Sajen]

Thank you as well Jim! And special for your as usual good thoughts about them. You are correct, they are not sharpened so is a ritual use very probable. And I agree with you that the antler hilts seems to have a talismanic purpose. See also the other knife from this area I have posted some time ago: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler, the handle from this knife is most probable from the same antler as this both. I will try to contact the people fom the given link, maybe they are able to provide more informations.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Thank you so much for posting these. I know nothing about these but am interested in anything shamanic (personal and professional reasons).

[Andrew]

Definitely mainland SEA.

The curved example is likely Vietnamese--Chinese motifs on the handle and blade make me lean towards that.

The other example strikes me a Laotian or northern Thai.

Regardless, nice examples.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Definitely mainland SEA.

The curved example is likely Vietnamese--Chinese motifs on the handle and blade make me lean towards that.

The other example strikes me a Laotian or northern Thai.

Regardless, nice examples.

Thank you Andrew, do you agree that they are shamanic knives? And do have seen before similar knives? I am really curious to see something similar since I never have seen such knives before.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you so much for posting these. I know nothing about these but am interested in anything shamanic (personal and professional reasons).

My enjoy Jose!

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Andrew, do you agree that they are shamanic knives? And do have seen before similar knives? I am really curious to see something similar since I never have seen such knives before.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef. I have seen similar, small knives, although not like the one with the curved blade--that is unusual in my personal experience.

The examples I've handled and collected with antler handles/pommels are from Cambodia, Thailand, Laos and Burma. For reasons unknown even to myself, I've never delved into Vietnamese weapons. I tend to think of them as more closely related to Chinese weapons than the other cultures in continental SEA, my main area of interest.

The curved one may be ritualistic, or may be purely decorative--I have no idea.

The other one, with the square tip, could be a type of "priest knife" similar to those carried by devout Buddhists in Thailand. It, also, reminds me of some betel nut knives I've seen. Any signs that it has ever had a sharp edge?

Best,
A

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hi Detlef. I have seen similar, small knives, although not like the one with the curved blade--that is unusual in my personal experience.

The examples I've handled and collected with antler handles/pommels are from Cambodia, Thailand, Laos and Burma. For reasons unknown even to myself, I've never delved into Vietnamese weapons. I tend to think of them as more closely related to Chinese weapons than the other cultures in continental SEA, my main area of interest.

The curved one may be ritualistic, or may be purely decorative--I have no idea.

The other one, with the square tip, could be a type of "priest knife" similar to those carried by devout Buddhists in Thailand. It, also, reminds me of some betel nut knives I've seen. Any signs that it has ever had a sharp edge?

Best,
A

Hi Andrew,

thank you again! Both knives have clearly a spine and edge but on both the edge isn't sharp. By the small one with steel blade it could be that it was sharp at any time but I doubt. And I don't know how the betel nut is used in this area. In India and Java/Bali the betel nut is used dry and so as hard nut, in some other parts of Indonesia the nut is used as young nut, so it is very soft (I have tried it in both ways and prefer the dry one ). What I want to say is that the small knife could easily be used for young betel nuts but no way for dry/hard ones. By the patinated blade I can imagine that it was maybe used for cutting young nuts.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I have get a very informed respond from one person of the from Jim given site, thank you very much Mark Rapoport!

Here what he have written:

i AM HAPPY TO HELP. The one on the right is easy. We have many such (or at least we used to; they are now scarce). They are made for use by hunters, as a utility knife but especially for removing the fat and other things from the inner surface of hides. For that reason, they do not have to be sharp along the long edges. The working edge is the flat short end portion. The knife can be held in the usual way, but the angle formed by the two parts of the deerhorn is ergonomic for inserting a finger or meshing with the web space between two fingers and pushing the end edge along the inside of the hide.


I have attached a fact sheet which we prepared for persons who purchase such knives from us. The ones illustrated have copper and brass handles, but engraved ones of silver (such as yours) or silver-plated brass are seen almost as often. These are most often identified as being from the Muong people (different from the Hmong/Mong). However, there is cross-cultural adoption of technology here, and this one might well be from a neighboring group.

And here partly what is written in the fact sheet which was attached to his mail:

Similarly, the knives that they use for skinning, cutting meat, making traps, etc. is also made totally from locally available materials, worked locally. The blades are always of iron. Iron keeps a sharp edge better than other metals, but rusts quickly. Often, the blade must be replaced with a new one. The “story” of the handle is a much more interesting tale.

As with all hunters, luck is an important component of success in hunting. In fact, luck is so important that it cannot “be left to chance”. Some groups have small calendars to specify which animals (or none at all) should be hunted on a given day. Others carry or wear talismans. Incorporating talismans into your tools is another good way. A knife is essential for a hunter (and in fact for men in general) for doing their work, and they are ubiquitous. The groups north and west of Hanoi make these into small works of art. The handles are usually of bronze, brass, silver or a combination of two or three of these metals. Often, the metals are used as decorative elements, either with simple braid designs or (in the case of silver) with floral and other patterns in three dimensions onto the metal. Often, the contrast in color among the metals is used as a decorative element.
The most important part, however, is the end of the handle. These are always made from parts of animals that are associated with hunting, masculinity, or power.
These include:
• Deer antler (uncarved and unshaped)
• Bear teeth
• Tiger teeth
• Ivory
• Dog teeth
• Bear or tiger claws (rare)

The deer antler is the most commonly chosen. The association with speed is obvious, as is the masculinity (since female deer of the species used do not have antlers). The naturally grooved surface is always left intact (in much the same way that it is in manner objects from Bavaria and elsewhere.) It often acquires a very dark patina from use and from the smoke of wood fires. One interesting nuance can be found on those that have one long and one short spike, creating a space within a “check-mark”. This is often used as an ergonomic element, acting as a brace for the fifth finger. Evidence of this is extensive wear and very smooth patina in that area. It is hard to judge age on these objects, since patina and wear is associated more with amount of use than with absolute age. We have been told that some are more than one hundred years old, but most are probably from one-third to one-half that old. Similarly, we are not aware of any characteristics that would allow precise assignment of any given knife to one specific ethnic group.




These hunting knives are from Muong men in Hoa Binh province, approximately 80 km from Hanoi. The Muong people live very closely with the Kinh majority people and spread over in different provinces in Vietnam. In addition, they are both descended from the Dong Son people, the first large and complex civilization in Viet Nam (400 B.C. to 100 A.D.)The tribal groups in Vietnam live mainly by growing and hunting. A hunter’s knife is not used to capture or bring down animals. Rather, it is the key tool in cutting bamboo to make traps, dressing animals, and preparing food while in the forest. As is common in society for which hunting is a crucial means of obtaining food, talismans play a role in assuring success of the hunt (and the safety of the hunters). Often, these talismans are parts of animals known for speed, power, or other traits useful for a hunter to acquire. These objects often are used to decorate to their knives and other functional tools.

Its handle was made of bronze (or, occasionally, bronze overlaid with silver), with the horn of a small deer or other talismanic material on the proximal end, as a finial. Teeth of bear (as here), dog, tiger or boar are often used, as is the horn of the buffalo (a part of one, of course). However most common is the small pronged horn of a deer species still found (albeit no often) in the mountains. Some of these were obtained from animals killed by the hunter. More often, however, they were shed antlers (shed annually, as is seen in deer and moose in the North American forest. The bronze is a very precious metal for the Muong, Thai, Dao, H'mong and other tribal groups. It is linked to their identity as Muong, and helps identify them as members of a specific group and residents of a certain locality. It helps people to fend off evil spirits and protecting them again the bad weather. Little is manufactured in their world, so they do more themselves.


It was attached a picture from two similar knives in this document also, soon as I know to copy this I will show this also.

[Sajen]

About the other knife on the left side he write:

The knife on the left in your photo is more problematic. I have never seen one like it, although I have seen (over the last 13 years) hundreds of the type on the right. I have also handled and acquired literally thousands of shamanic items, and I have never seen one like it. The shape of the antler (no V-shape) makes it less likely that it was functional. the leaf-shape of the blade is one often seen in shamanic wooden wands, so I thing that is consistent with a shamanic use. The raised decorations on the handle are very NOT tribal (at least from VN). Almost all here are incised, rather than raised. Also, the designs on the blade are not typical of what we see. So, here is my best guess, since I have never seen one like it:
More likely Cambodian or Thai (in Thailand), possibly Burma
most likely from one of the ethnic minority groups in the country of origin.
not likely to be functional

possibly shamanic, but might also be for presentation.
probably NOT a betel-cutting knife. They almost always have iron, scimitar-like blades and are smaller.

So this knife need still to be identified and I hope that we will be able to resolve this in the future!

[Andrew]

Wow! Great information, thanks!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Wow! Great information, thanks!

Yes, agree, I never have thought to get such good informations! My thank goes to Jim and Mark Rapoport!

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

I am bringing this old thread back up because I recently purchased from an Australian dealer another example of these Muong hunting knives. Like examples shown below it has the typical stag pommel, silver hilt, and spatulate dark blade. Unfortunately the silver grip is broken across the middle, but the incised design is typical of work from northern Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc.

While the broad flat end of the knife is the main functional area (see below), this knife also has a sharpened edge with evidence of some loss of metal over time along that edge. The thickness of the blade is no more than 1.5 mm along its length and is somewhat flexible.

Age is hard to tell, but this one could easily be 19th C judging from the dark patina of the blade, the yellowing of the stag, and its general condition.

Dimensions:
Length of blade: 16 cm
Maximum width of blade: 3.8 cm
Silver hilt: 9.5 cm
Stag pommel: 10 cm
Overall length: 35.5 cm.

.

[Sajen]

Hello Ian,

A nice one, congrats! They seems to be somewhat rare, yours is the second example I've seen until now.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hi Detlef,

Yes, they do seem to be uncommon. I've been looking for one for several years and found it online recently. I see that Mark Rapaport in his letter to you says that they used to be commonly found in the traditional tribal areas, but now much less so.

Regards, Ian

[Battara]

Great piece Ian. When I grow up I'll get one too...........I love religious and shamanic weapons!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Great piece Ian. When I grow up I'll get one too...........I love religious and shamanic weapons!

You need to look for another reason to get one. The knife from my collection, the both shown in #17 and Ians knife are utility knives like Mark Rapaport stated like follows in #17:
"The one on the right is easy. We have many such (or at least we used to; they are now scarce). They are made for use by hunters, as a utility knife but especially for removing the fat and other things from the inner surface of hides. For that reason, they do not have to be sharp along the long edges. The working edge is the flat short end portion. The knife can be held in the usual way, but the angle formed by the two parts of the deerhorn is ergonomic for inserting a finger or meshing with the web space between two fingers and pushing the end edge along the inside of the hide."
But the muntjak horn horn has indeed a talismanic function.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Another example I pulled from a simple online search. Also a utility knife. This one has a brass hilt that also shows a repair where the handle has split transversely. This might be a common problem with the design of the hilt and use of the knife.

.