'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[Radboud]

Solingen in Germany has for a very long time been a major manufacturer and exporter of sword and knife blades. These blades were exported far and wide; sold to local cutlers who would mount them on hilts in the local fashions.

While some blades were visibly marked as having come from Solingen, others were not leaving us to make educated guesses of their origins based on decorations and styles.

Two common clues are the 'cartouche' on the ricasso and the presence of a "Rose" on the blade spine at the base. The Rose seams to have appeared in the latter half of the 18th Century and disappeared in the 1820s when the decoration styles changed as well.

Pawel Bartela askes if this change is related to the abolishment of guilds in 1809 by Napoleon:

One of the Solingen marks on the back of the blade. Do you know sabers from the 1820s and later with such a sign? Does the end of the marking have anything to do with the dissolution of craftsmen's guilds in Solingen by Napoleon in 1809?
Decree of March 31, 1809 in Dutchy of Berg (Solingen). [https://wiki.genealogy.net/Patentensteuer_(Westfalen)

International Sword Collectors | Facebook Group

While I don't know the answer, it does appear from known examples that the Rose is missing from blades after the 1820s.

It should also be added that the makers at Solingen were very accommodating and happy to apply marks to their blades in line with their clients' needs. Examples of this are the blades imported by Runkel to the UK between 1780 and 1808. These are marked with his name prior to them being engraved and finished with blue and gilt decoration.

Below are examples of swords from my collection with Solingen made blades that pre-date the change in the 1820s:

French 'Cote de Melon' light cavalry officers' sabre:


Example of the Solingen Cartouche and 'talismanic' decorations


Going by the hilt style and blade decorations, I would date this sword to the 1780s.

"Rose" Mark


French 'Garde de Bataille' Heavy cavalry sword:


Cartouche and Solingen style Trophy of Arms:



Missing its blue and gilt.

Rose Mark


French Dragoon Officers 'Garde de Bataille'


Cartouche


Rose mark

[Radboud]

French Year 11 Light cavalry officers' sabre

This sabre is likely to be from the Napoleonic era, but it is possible that dates a little past that. However, the bluing terminates in a straight line, which predates the 1820s change. This blade was retailed by S&K.



Cartouche with S&K mark



Rose mark


Dutch m1800 Light Cavalry officers' sabre
This sabre has all the typical Solingen decorations but the makers name on the spine is Rys with the Dutch Y. It likely served with Dutch forces during the reign of Napoleon.



Cartouche


Cutler's name instead of the Rose

[Radboud]

The rest of my Solingen-made blades are from the British side of my collection (I'm excluding the smallswords as they don't have spines and one spadroon with a double-edged blade) and were imported by J J Runkel. They are interesting because they show a uniformity of iconography and variations in the signature.

1788 Pattern light cavalry troopers sword

This sword would have been imported as a complete sword by Runkel, it has an ordinance board inspection stamp, and even though the blade is engraved it would have been 'bare' of blue or gilt. These are a good example of how the craftsmen in Solingen were able turn out blades, that a trooper sword would be decorated in this manner.



Cartouch, ordinance board stamp and talismanic decorations


R. Sohlingen
Note the spelling of Solingen with an h, this appears to have changed around the turn of the century.


Horse Head officers sabre by Archer of Dublin
Note the straight termination of the blueing. The blade is engraved with GR on one side and the pre-1801 coat of arms. Other decorations are fairly typical of Solingen's work.


Cartouche


J.J: Runkel. Solingen


1786 Style Infantry Officers sword
This is a 1780-1790s style infantry officer sword with a Runkel-supplied blade. The blue and gilt are missing, but it has the GR and post-1801 coat of arms.



Cartouche


J: J: Runkel Solingen

[Radboud]

1803 Pattern Infantry "Flank" Officers sabre.
The sword was assembled by Prosser, who was known to use Runkel blades earlier in his career. The blade has lost its blue and gilt, but has the standard decorations along with the GR cypher and the 1801 - 1816 coat of arms.



Cartouche


J: J: Runkel Solingen


1803 Pattern Light Company Officers sabre.
Assembled by Bennett, the blueing terminates in a straight line with GR and 1801 - 1816 British Coat of Arms.



Blade and Cartouche



J. J. Runkel Solingen
Note how the gilding terminates at Solingen, indicating that the engraving was done at time of manufacture.

[Radboud]

If other members have their own examples of late 18th to early 19th-century Solingen-made blades, I would love to see their markings to expand on the sample size.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent topic and thread! Thank you!
I had asked about the 'ROSE', or what appears to be a floral/vegetal device on the spine of blades near the hilt, and in some arcane fashion as shown in these examples.
Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?
It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I have seen other British swords non-Runkel blades that have the Rose, I just don't have one in my collection unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Only the ones made for the French army needed to be marked on the spine with the manufacturers' name (this includes some Solingen-made An XI light cavalry trooper swords).

Officers' private purchase of swords may or may not be marked, and many blades were imported to meet the demand for blades. Also I say the sword is French, but it could have just as easily belonged to one of the officers from another nation serving in the French Army.

As a side note, I have seen one pamphlet addressed to French officers following the invasion and take over of Solingen, translations for French to German sword terms for those looking to buy a new sword

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?

I personally believe that Caissagnard was a cutler and assembled swords from purchased parts rather than manufacture them. I don't believe that the iconography seen on his swords started with him, as there are a lot of variations found on other swords. I suspect he was following the fashion of the time.

I have one Caissagnard blade and the spine is clear of markings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

Looking at the swords with the remaining blue and gilt, I believe that many blades were exported pre-decorated and sold to cutlers who would then fit them to hilts and scabbards.

[Radboud]

Looking through my reference photos I'm seeing a lot of early British swords with Solingen blades but not many where they provide photos of the spine. That said here are a few I did find.

Nice circa 1770 Georgian Horse Grenadiers sword:



Cartouche



Rose Mark



And another from the same era:

Georgian Cavalry Officer's sword


Cartouche


Rose Mark


British Lions' head pommel sabre


Typical Solingen cartouche


No Rose Mark or retailer, just Solingen

[corrado26]

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

[Radboud]

Probably South German light cavalry officers' sabre (Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Hesse)



Not the best photos, but you can make out the cartouche and a hint of the rose mark




Saxon Light Cavalry officers sabre


Cartouche


Rose Mark


Source: Saxon Napoleonic era Officer's Sabre

And this sabre, I have it as German, but the style could be French as well, especially with that carp's tongue point.



Cartouche


Rose and S&K retailers mark.
This rose appears to be different from my S&K marked sabre. Different bladesmith?

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Respectfully I disagree, all the blades I have shown have the cartouche on the ricasso and either Solingen on the spine or a rose. These cartouches are not found on British or French-produced blades.

In the case of the S&K marked swords, we know the Solingen-based retailer that exported the rose-marked blades. Plus there are I.C.B marked smallswords with this cartouche (but no rose because of the trefoil blades):

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I have a small sword hilted spadroon type sword probably for a Dutch officer with this 'rose' detail.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Flag of the Seven United Netherlands 1581-1795.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

This is an amazing thread, and again Radboud, I thank you for initiating it.
Also,, I am so grateful to see all of these great examples shared here. While as many here know, I have been particularly fascinated by blade markings and motif for many years, so this discussion is especially important to me.

The 'Caissagnard' matter for me evolved from several references in French, where my limited understanding of the language prevented more detailed comprehension of what was mostly comments on the talismanic, occult and arcane motifs on French blades of 18th into early 19th c.

I had presumed the name was to a cutler, but more that it had seemed to become a colloquial term describing these motif elements.

It seems to me quite possible that the blade decoration which includes these unusual squiggles and swirls termed 'roses' at the blade spine near hilt may have been added by cutlers to blades which were essentially 'blanks' from shops in Solingen.

These appear to me to be singular renditions of a basic form in a key location on the blade which represent arcane identification or perhaps other 'magical' or occult symbolism as with sigils and such devices. The term magic should not be taken in the negative connotation often perceived, but more in this arcane sense.
The so called 'anchor' used in the names and motif from Spanish swords and readily adopted by Solingen are an example of this type of nuanced symbolism familiar in cabalistic, talismanic, magic and occult symbolism in sigils and such devices.

Years ago I noticed the 'anchors' often had varied numbers of cross bars and serifs rather than a single pattern, and thought this might be some sort of individual signature subtly placed on a common device by certain makers.
The familiar cross and orb of Germany may have been a variation on these, and various writers have tried to associate certain collectively used devices with specific makers, but this has remained unconvincing.

The features and decorative motif of blades of the 18th c. indeed did diffuse widely through Europe and Great Britain via the rage of military fashion, and these styles of motif were not necessarily applied only in Solingen, but with cutlers and outfitters using imported blades.

Makers stamps and punzones on blades are an entirely different matter than these kinds of applied motif, etching, bluing etc. which were rather custom tailored to those receiving the sword being received from such outfitters.

These are just my opinions on the processing and diffusion of swords of these times circulating with officers in armies of various nations and states. As officers of various countries were often with the armies of foreign nations, it is easy to see how styles and fashion diffused so widely.
The pageantry of military uniforms and fashion in these periods has long been a most popular subject for collectors,artists and historians for these very reasons.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Flag of the Seven United Netherlands 1581-1795.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman, I love this sword, and the sword knot is sublime. I have a similar sword and some information that I believe will be of interest to you. I'll post it in a new thread to keep the topics apart.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is an amazing thread, and again Radboud, I thank you for initiating it.

Thank you for the comments and feedback Jim.

(The comments below are limited to include a very specific time frame; from about 1770 to around 1820. As technology and the needs of the clientele develop, supply and production methodology develop as well.)

I think the Caissagnard connection is interesting as well, as from the surviving examples we have, it is clear he liked to repeat the same three motifs of sword arm, sun and moon on his blades.

This is the information I have on Caissagnard, who worked as a furbisher

CASSAIGNARD
Pierre Cassaignard was born in 1708 and died in September 1786. In 1734-1737, he was appointed juror of the Maîtres arquebusiers. It was his son (first name unknown) who settled in Nantes where he worked as a furbisher from 1774 to 1812. The signatures are handwritten with embellished capital letters and found as follows:

Cassaignard / Md / Fourbisseaur / a Nantes
- A Marine officers sabre
Cassaignard / Fourbisseur / du Roy / a Nantes
- A sabre a brass hilt
Cassaignard / Fourbisseur / du Roy / a Nantes
- On the ricasso as for the previous inscriptions and higher
a la victoire
- Ensign (trade name?) of Cassaignard on the blued smallsword possibly for a Marine officer
Cassaignard / Fourbisseur / du Roy / Maitre arquebussier / pres la Bourse / a Nantes
- On a sabre belonging to an officer of Marine troops engraved with sun, moons, stars
Cassagnard / Fourbisseur / du Roy / et Arquebussier pres la Bourse / a Nantes
- Note different spelling of name, found on small sword with pas d ane guard 1755 - 1780

Armes Blanches
Symbolisme, Inscriptions, Marquages, Fourbisseurs, Manufactures
By Jean L'Hoste and Jean-Jacques Buigne
Pg. 181

As a furbisher Cassaignard is unlikely to have manufactured his own blades. So then the question is, did he source complete swords or blank blades and apply the fittings and decorations himself, or did he acquire the blades decorated to his specifications and then apply the fittings? Keep in mind that he also sold firearms, making it less likely he did any work himself, acting more as an outfitter than a producer.

While admittedly, my understanding of the process that turned steel into a complete sword ready for sale is limited, I do know that it involved several stages with components passing through multiple hands (even borders) along the way (the extreme example of this is Indian steel getting used on a Viking sword, so it's been this way for centuries). We also see the growth of complementary industries building around key competencies. Such as steel works and bladesmiths in Toledo around high-quality ore deposits.

It is reasonable then to assume that if the Solingen blade smiths didn't decorate their works themselves, there would have been craftsmen on hand to pass them on to, along with cutlers to fit the grips and scabbards. This group of craftsmen would then have worked hand in hand with the authorised merchants to facilitate the negotiations between client and producer.

The actual decorations were applied with a stencil, so it wouldn't have been too difficult for a customer and middleman to agree to a design and then order a quantity of blades complete with decoration. We see evidence of this in the indifferent spelling of English names on Solingen-produced blades of the 19th Century.

I personally still believe that a good number of Solingen exported blades were supplied complete with decoration applied. I'm sure they supplied blanks as well, being merchants first and foremost, but the large number of surviving blades with very similar decorations that can be attributed to Solingen, but used by different countries makes this the most plausible explanation.

Especially when the local craftsmen have a distinct fashion of their own. The most striking example of this is the J J Runkel imported blades. Aside from the GR cypher and the British Coat of Arms, the decorations on these blades are strikingly plain against what the British sword makers are producing, with their charging horsemen, angelic figures and Britania with her shield. The same can be said when we compare the two S&K swords shown above against their French-made contemporaries. They look like mass-produced swords kept as generic as possible to appeal to a larger number of buyers.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Italian officers sabre
Circa 1790-1800 with Garde de Perle style hilt and horse hair pommel cap.



Cartouche
Square cartouche at the ricasso with Solingen engraved in one side and S & J or S & K on the other.


Rose Mark
Rose mark on the spine of the blade


Interestingly with this sabre, the blade decoration is more bespoke than normally seen

[Jim McDougall]

As with most things, variation and exception are a constant, and with the Solingen situation, it was a manufacturing center for blades, which involved many makers, shops and artisans. Naturally there may have been cases of specific completed swords in which entire decorated blades were mounted there. However, this, in my opinion was one of the exceptions.

To the case in point, I dont believe that the decorative 'rose' images inscribed on the blade spines at the forte were ubiquitous enough in such blades which might have been applied in Solingen to designate them as a 'Solingen' affectation. In most of the cases by the examples shown, they seem to be aligned with French officers swords of 18th c into 19th along with armies associated with the French. As we agree, the blades on these were likely acquired by Caissagnard, and certainly other furbishers, for mounting.

If in some cases, these cutlers had found artisans in Solingen to apply particular decoration, this would not be surprising, however this would be an incidental case, and not supportive of these decorations being a collectively used decoration or certainly not a certain makers indicator from Solingen in specific.

The 18th century was a time where there was a fascination with mysticism, the occult, magic and of course talismanic symbolism oddly combined with superstitious notions and religious invocations. These kinds of elements were attractive to Europeans who regarded the exotica of oriental fashions, weaponry and symbolism as formidable and even fearsome. This was what inspired the concepts of light cavalry, particularly hussars, and led to the notorious 'pandours' of the Austrian armies of the mid 18th c.
These forces were primarily Hungarian and Croatian, and adopted the colorful oriental fashion and arms, which with their known depredations rendered them much feared.

Hungarian swords, much as Polish, often had themes in their decoration of military regalia, arms, and religious symbolism, as prevalent in the Holy Roman Empire. The 'arm in the cloud' notably religious and becoming a familiar heraldic charge, became such an element copied to the west in France, and Germany. Here I would note the use of the 'Turks head', the turbaned figure also used in East Europe, and was among the prevalent element in the Caissagnard themes. The sun and moon figures also came from East Europe, and were actually ancient devices from early tribal histories in Hungary, though I cannot resist the similarity to the 'tarot' card art. ...well aligned with the occult themes of the 18th c.

So these decorative blade conventions traveled through Europe of course including cases in Solingen but most blades made there were simply marked with punzones. The famed 'running wolf' of Passau, began used on blades by contract to certain Passau armorers; the 'ANDREA FERARA' for blades primarily consigned to Scotland (many to England as well); the SAHAGUM (in variation) mostly to Northern Europe.
Many blades used spurious Spanish punzones along with marks intended for espaderos del Rey, incongruently which along with incorrect wording, spelling etc. belied the Solingen origins of these blades.

I am far from claiming metallurgical knowledge or metal processing, but the use of Indian steel (wootz) was indeed widespread, but not necessarily used as such in Viking swords, which were actually mostly from the Rhineland using pattern welded processes. While a great deal of credit is given to key ore deposits around Toledo, Solingen etc. much of the steel used in forging was imported in ingots from locations in Sweden, as one example. It is not to say iron deposits were not present in or around these centers, just that the smelting processes were often supplanted by imported steel in ingots.

These are mostly just my understanding of various aspects of topics we are discussing, and as always, exchanging of these kinds of details give us a better perspective in reaching at least somewhat more comprehensive scope on them.
This along with the remarkable examples being shown is outstanding!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As with most things, variation and exception are a constant, and with the Solingen situation, it was a manufacturing center for blades, which involved many makers, shops and artisans. Naturally there may have been cases of specific completed swords in which entire decorated blades were mounted there. However, this, in my opinion was one of the exceptions.

How do we qualify an exception? From the surviving examples, we know that Solingen made a vast quantity of blades. If ten percent of their business was completed swords, does this qualify as an exception? What evidence do we have to even speculate on such a percentage?

We know from the research and physical examples that J J Runkel imported into the UK completed swords into the UK; the 1788 pattern from my collection is one of those and a perfect example of a generic 1780s "Hussar" sabre, that would otherwise be labelled "European Hussar Sabre" were it not for the British Ordinance board stamp. The capacity to make those swords had to be in place for him to be able to supply them.



I can show you two other examples of near-identical swords made by Solingen that, were it not for markings, would be nearly impossible to identify accurately.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

To the case in point, I dont believe that the decorative 'rose' images inscribed on the blade spines at the forte were ubiquitous enough in such blades which might have been applied in Solingen to designate them as a 'Solingen' affectation. In most of the cases by the examples shown, they seem to be aligned with French officers swords of 18th c into 19th along with armies associated with the French. As we agree, the blades on these were likely acquired by Caissagnard, and certainly other furbishers, for mounting.

I should point out that in the period they were used, France did control a significant proportion of Europe, inspired the fashion of Europe and filled her armies with men from European allies & vassal states.

Also, there is a huge element of selection bias in the examples I've shown. Since I have primarily focused my personal collecting research on French, British and where possible, Dutch swords. It is only natural that the database of images I have gathered and drawn from will heavily feature swords from these nations. I am sure there are plenty of examples from other nations that I have overlooked since they fall outside of my personal field of interest. With the collectors I have spoken to who share a similar field of interest, it is pretty much a given that the Rose is a Solingen mark, the questions are more around when it started, stopped and what they mean.

If you or anyone else has examples of blades with the Rose that can be positively identified as not having been produced in Solingen, I would be truly grateful.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If in some cases, these cutlers had found artisans in Solingen to apply particular decoration, this would not be surprising, however this would be an incidental case, and not supportive of these decorations being a collectively used decoration or certainly not a certain makers indicator from Solingen in specific.

I disagree, and the physical evidence demonstrates that a good portion of Solingen-made blades were sold pre-decorated. Furthermore, it is doubtful that many foreign cutlers dealt directly with the bladesmiths themselves, and instead went through intermediaries such as Runkel and S&K.

The two S&K blades I have shown earlier are pretty much identical in decorations, including the S&K logo on the ricasso. Since S&K were specifically traders, they would have purchased these blades with the decorations pre-applied for on-sale to the French cutlers. The smallsword in my collection with the blade from Johann & Clemens Boegel would have been sold with their I.C.B logo and decorations applied to the blade.

Of the twenty-two British swords in my collection, six of them have blades imported by Runkel, four of them have near identical decorations even though they were sold to four different cutlers (Prosser, Bennett, Archer of Dublin and one unknown). Of the two that have atypical decorations, the first is the 1788 that was imported as a complete sword and the second is a 1796 Pattern heavy cavalry officers dress sword. Of the 1796, these have a double-edged blade and the majority of the surviving examples have plain blades with Runkels' signature in the fuller.

When I look at a single-edged British sword, I can instantly spot that it carries a Runkel or Solingen blade purely by its decorations. Naturally, it is likely that bare Solingen blades were imported and then locally decorated in British fashion, but without a Solingen stamp on the blade there is no way to identify an example. Existing blades marked to Solingen with British decorations are rare in my experience.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So these decorative blade conventions traveled through Europe of course including cases in Solingen but most blades made there were simply marked with punzones. The famed 'running wolf' of Passau, began used on blades by contract to certain Passau armorers; the 'ANDREA FERARA' for blades primarily consigned to Scotland (many to England as well); the SAHAGUM (in variation) mostly to Northern Europe.
Many blades used spurious Spanish punzones along with marks intended for espaderos del Rey, incongruently which along with incorrect wording, spelling etc. belied the Solingen origins of these blades.

I believe that this style of marking (Andrea Ferara and Sahagum) had dropped out of favour by the late 18th Century; blades with these markings typically pre-date the 1760s. I also believe that the Passau wolf disappeared at the end of the 17th century, maybe in the early 18th.

The period that we're talking about, 1770 - 1820, is where we see an increase in the use of complex decorations such as talismanic symbols, etching and chemical blue and gilt finishing. This is the period where the Rose can be found and then disappears. Being able to pinpoint when it disappears helps us date swords better as well.

I agree that the fashion for talismanic symbols very likely came to Western Europe via the Hungarian hussars.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am far from claiming metallurgical knowledge or metal processing, but the use of Indian steel (wootz) was indeed widespread, but not necessarily used as such in Viking swords.

I've only heard of one example but found it incredible so it stuck in my mind. Also remember that the Vikings were first and foremost traders and they travelled as far as the Mediterranean to trade. So using steel from India is not so far-fetched when we consider that Alexander the Great himself invaded India centuries earlier.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These are mostly just my understanding of various aspects of topics we are discussing, and as always, exchanging of these kinds of details give us a better perspective in reaching at least somewhat more comprehensive scope on them. This along with the remarkable examples being shown is outstanding!

Amen to that, we only learn through sharing.

[Bryce]

G'day Radboud,
I will back you up that Solingen blade decoration is instantly recognizable. As an example the photo below shows similar decoration on a British 1796 heavy cavalry officers undress sword with a Runkel blade (left) and a French Heavy cavalry officer guarde de bataille sword with a blade marked ISB.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Radboud]

Thank you for the photos Bryce, does the GdB have a Rose or Solingen written on the spine? I'd love to see more photos of that area if you have them.

[Bryce]

Here you go.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Bryce]

Here is another sword you may be interested in.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Bryce]

Here is a British 1796 infantry officer's sword with a Solingen blade, that isn't marked to Runkel. This one isn't from my collection.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Radboud]

Lovely examples Bryce, that GdB sabre is unique!

[Jim McDougall]

Radboud, again, it is amazing to have this discussion on this topic, and particularly noting the part played by Solingen in actual blade decoration.
I am glad you joined us Bryce! now both 'top guns' in this field of collecting are here! and gentlemen, quite honestly I defer to your well founded expertise.

The outstanding examples both of you have prolifically shared here over the years reflect the remarkable knowledge and experience you have gained in collecting and studying them, and I very much appreciate your openly sharing and discussing it here.

Radboud, your rebuttal is well thought out and worded, and your well parsed note on my comment on 'exception' referring to the Solingen production characteristics was well placed. The word exception did not well carry what I meant. I had been under the impression that while Solingen was of course primarily a blade making center, the business of decorating blades was left to the cutlers ,case in point here Great Britain, who bought the blades for mounting.

Naturally as officers bought their swords typically commissioned by outfitters who were often also jewelers, workers in precious metals and privately commissioned. Naturally Solingen had artisans who also decorated blades, but I had thought that commissioning a sword for an officer would likely be more personally achieved with a local outfitter he was familiar with.

It makes sense that already decorated blades with more and less 'generic' themes would be available from Solingen and now I recall that in the case of the blades on the initial run of the unique sabers for the officers of the 10th Prince of Wales Hussars were Solingen decorated. As I recall, the Prince, who was like his father, keen on military, particularly fashion oriented, matters, and had ordered a number of blades for custom made sabers earlier.
These were blades of 'exotic' Persian type blades (with yelman) and decorated with the popular themes well known in Europe. In 1809 or 1810 he commissioned Prosser to assemble sabers for his officers will specially designed hilt.....I believe there were 27 in all.

I have had one of these (in notably horrible condition) acquired over 40 years ago, in the time I was collecting British cavalry swords, but the blued blade decoration is long gone.
This does of course support the fact that Solingen did indeed provide fully decorated blades, as you guys assert. As you note Radboud, we cannot know the degree or percentage of such work.

Your point that there were noted intermediaries such as S&K, Runkel et al who acquired blades from the swordsmiths and sold them to cutlers, mostly in Great Britain. Naturally, many such blades might be sold to same in other countries. The 'variation', another term I used, would derive from the fact that cutlers often acquired elements for hilt assembly from other vendors.

Your note on the time frame for the ubiquitous ANDREA FERARA, SAHAGUM et al blades is of course correct, and I had neglected to state that the Solingen use of these had pretty much waned by mid 18th century, if not earlier.

Thank you again guys, it is really good to get back in the saddle again on the British swords, its been about a 40 year 'minute' aside from a occasional foray back into the field, and amazing to see how much has been discovered and well learned, especially by both of you, and by Richard Dellar, whose excellent reference "The British Cavalry Sword: Some New Perspectives" truly rekindled old interests.

Back to the topic, it would seem that the 'rose' was a somewhat varied floral style device placed on the blade spine near the forte, sometimes somewhat en suite with the decorated panels of the blade at the forte, and seemingly a Solingen convention in the period c. 1780s-1810-20. It will be interesting to discover the source of this distinct device and if it was unique only to Solingen, or if its presence elsewhere was the result of the ubiquitous use of decorated blades from Solingen by other countries and states.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Radboud, again, it is amazing to have this discussion on this topic, and particularly noting the part played by Solingen in actual blade decoration.
I am glad you joined us Bryce! now both 'top guns' in this field of collecting are here! and gentlemen, quite honestly I defer to your well founded expertise.

Thank you for the endorsement Jim, but Bryce and others like Brian Robson, Richard Dellar and Chris Allen are the true experts. I'm only an amateur who likes to ask questions or add my observations when I can.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Naturally as officers bought their swords typically commissioned by outfitters who were often also jewelers, workers in precious metals and privately commissioned. Naturally Solingen had artisans who also decorated blades, but I had thought that commissioning a sword for an officer would likely be more personally achieved with a local outfitter he was familiar with.

This question on the International Antique Swords Facebook group seems relevant and got an excellent answer from Steve Langham, another authority on British swords:

Anyone know how many sword makers were active in GB during the 19th C?
I keep discovering yet another, and that doesn’t even count the cutlers. Clearly an empire at almost perpetual war, as the demand for officers kit could support so many makers and cutlers.

Steve answered:

Yeah, it's a difficult question, it depends on what you call a sword maker, as there are a dozen different stages to making a sword, and even some of our best known British 'sword-makers' were known to have used German-made blades (yes, even Gill and Osborn), especially in times of peak demand. Early in the 19th C it was more of a cottage industry (especially in Birmingham), where blade-makers, scabbard-makers, hilt-makers etc. can be found listed separately. Towards the later 19th C these tended to amalgamate into big producers who took the various stages in-house (Mole, Wilkinson etc.).

There are 4,320 distinct 'points of sale' (unique name and address) in the database across the Empire, arranged into 1,794 related tables, as you can sort sellers into dynasties, e.g. where a son took over and the name changed.

A new attribution turns up about once every fortnight, which is a much reduced frequency, so we are definitely bottoming out the data, but I doubt the database will ever stop expanding as new swords come to light.

For reference, Steve is building a database of British sword makers, cutlers, tailors etc from advertising directories published at the time and other sources such as news articles. His work can be found here: Swordresearch.org

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks... well outside my field but an excellent -- thrilling even! -- thread.
Something came to mind while absorbing the cut and thrust of this discussion and it is this:
during my early forays into the world of blades and swords I learned that the majority of blades produced in Solingen were sent to Cologne to be given appropriate markings to suit the prevailing market.
Is it possible that a lot of the markings you are discussing could have been applied in Köln before being sold onwards?

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, in trying to locate the reference to Koln (Cologne), I recall reading this passim, but it seems this situation was in earlier years of the Solingen blade producing phenomenon. What was said was that while the blades were of course made in Solingen, they were sent to Koln for mounting, and that for some time German swords from these regions were termed 'Koln swords'.
This kind of circumstance happens in a number of cases such as with the swords of North Italy from various cities were collectively termed 'Genoan' as that was the port of export.

In the period in discussion which is centered in later years of 18thc. the focus has been on fully decorated blades being exported into England.

What I just found is from "The American Eagle Pommel Sword:The Early Years 1794-1830", Andrew Mowbray, 1988, p.55;

"...almost all of the earliest eagle pommeled swords cutlered in London used blades imported from Solingen by any one of a number of local brokers specializing in the German blade trade".
It is noted that Runkel was the most important, however there were a number of others with family in Solingen furnishing them with blades as well.

Further noted, "...commodity quality Solingen blades were at this time, almost ALWAYS of simple blue and gilt decoration, sprigs amidst hastily outlined crude panoplies of arms. Because of their non nationalistic designs, this style of blade could be sold widely throughout Europe".

While the references refer to the swords being exported from England to America by London cutlers, the important notes are to the fact that Solingen was supplying fully decorated blades to England and other nations in the period 1790s-1815.
The references to these blades apply of course to officers swords, and it is noted that the examples with decorated blades were likely from Solingen, and with plain blades were most probably from Birmingham.

I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known.
The 'scandal' was the claim that English blades by Gill, Wooley,et al were not only as good but better than the imported German blades. Runkel furnished German blades for the testing.

It is unclear whether artisans decorating the Solingen blades were there or in nearby Koln, but possibly that cutler industry indeed remained as before for fully decorated blades.

For listings of sword makers and cutlers in England 19th c.

The source by Mowbray (op. cit.) has two pages of names but possibly incomplete as the focus was on exports to America.
Others:
"Swords for Sea Service", (2 vol.) W.E.May, P.G.W.Annis, 1970 most comprehensive
"Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland", Richard Bezdek, 2003
" London Silver Hilted Swors", Leslie Southwick, 2001

These are most useful compendiums, but it sounds as if Mr. Langham is doing a great deal of primary research beyond these sources. These, especially 'May & Annis' (the venerable standby used since the 70s) have been the 'go to' sources on this topic for many years. Mr. Langhams work will be a welcome and important addition.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known.

At the time, British cutlers were complaining about the tariffs on blades imported from Solingen. They argued that British-produced blades were sub-standard to the German ones. Thomas Gill contested this, claiming that blades produced by him were every bit, if not better than German made blades. He tried on several occasions to have his claim tested by the Ordinance board until finally, the East India Trading company agreed to conduct a test involving swords produced by him, Wooly and supplied by Runkel.

Not surprisingly (possibly because the designer of the testing machine was a close friend of his) Thomas Gill's swords came out on top with a very low failure rate. Next were Runkels' imports. Woollys swords came last, with well over half failing the test.

What followed was a lengthy exchange of letters published in the local papers between Gill and Woolly.

Of interest is the time when Runkel was caught falsifying his import documentation to reduce the duty cost. Some 5,000 blades were confiscated and bladesmiths such as Gill then petitioned to have the blades given to them as compensation.

Interestingly, these tests do not appear to have dented Woolly's reputation, as they remained one of the prominent bladesmiths of the time. Regarding the decoration, they produced blades for the government (remember that regular cavalry soldiers were still supplied their swords by the government), East India Company and private purchase officers. It's pretty common to find officer blades by Woolly that have been decorated in blue and guilt, with their logo on them.