Flanking officer saber?

[cel7]

Received this saber today. I saw it at an auction and since no one was bidding on it I couldn't resist. It has quite a curve (11cm) and a clipped point. length 90cm. At the base it is almost 1cm thick. It has a wide fuller all the way to the tip. In my opinion late 18th or early 19th century.
The decorations on the blade are typically European (the cannons with banners). The strange thing is that the last 30cm of the blade seems to have been hammered out. If you run a finger over the blade you will clearly feel a wavy pattern. It may have had some major kinks at some point that they tried to straighten out.
I suspect it is a British flanking officer saber but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cel7

... Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath...

Still was a great acquisition .

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by cel7

Received this saber today. I saw it at an auction and since no one was bidding on it I couldn't resist. It has quite a curve (11cm) and a clipped point. length 90cm. At the base it is almost 1cm thick. It has a wide fuller all the way to the tip. In my opinion late 18th or early 19th century.
The decorations on the blade are typically European (the cannons with banners). The strange thing is that the last 30cm of the blade seems to have been hammered out. If you run a finger over the blade you will clearly feel a wavy pattern. It may have had some major kinks at some point that they tried to straighten out.
I suspect it is a British flanking officer saber but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath.

Hallo ,
Not exactly my stuff ,but i would say english, second half 18th.century,blade probably German ( Solingen) .A similar trophy bundle i have at the blade of a much older Feldsäbel.In the book "Enzyclopedia of Swords and Sabres", you find a sabre with a similar hilt but with a much less curved blade.
Good purchase

[cel7]

Originally Posted by Akanthus

Hallo ,
Not exactly my stuff ,but i would say english, second half 18th.century,blade probably German ( Solingen) .A similar trophy bundle i have at the blade of a much older Feldsäbel.In the book "Enzyclopedia of Swords and Sabres", you find a sabre with a similar hilt but with a much less curved blade.
Good purchase

Thanks Akantus!
Apparently this type of decoration was very fashionable at the time. I see it on sabers of different nationalities.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually, this is a REMARKABLE acquisition!!!!
While it is of course not surprising to think of this as British etc. given their profound attraction to the light cavalry of Eastern Europe in the 18th century, this is actually a Polish cavalry saber of 18th c.

A very similar example is found in "Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla", Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989,

These 'monster' head pommels are seen on several sword types of these regions in 18thc. . I would note that these rather extreme curves on the blades were much favored, and the 'clipped point' is referred to in "Schwert Degen Sabel", (Seifert, 1962) as a PANDOUR point.

The pandours were irregular forces from the Balkans and East Europe, most notably Hungary for Austria during the War of the Austrian Succession in mid 18th c. '
Later in the century these formidable forces were inspiration for similar in other European armies as well.

The absence of one guard bar and the capstan is not unusual with variations in these hilts.

The blades on these were often from Styria and several blade producing cities there. The decorative motif was popular on these sabers, often including royal or personal cyphers and various military panoplies.

An extremely nice saber, regardless of lack of scabbard. These were usually leather and did not survive in many cases. The grip would have been leather wire wrapped.

Please note, I am not saying this is a pandour saber, but that the influence/similarities seem present in this Polish saber of the 18th c.

[cel7]

Hi Jim, Thanks for your response, I really appreciate it! The saber does indeed look similar. I'll look into the Polish sabre. Hadn't thought of that yet. And that is also what makes it so difficult to find out exactly what it is. The style of a saber moved with fashion. Countries copied from each other and at a time when officers also had a more or less free choice in what they wore, I find it difficult to definitively put a stamp on it.
I forgot to add a photo of a mark on the spine of the saber. If I'm not mistaken, this is a Solinger rose. Now I don't know whether the British also had their sabers made in Solingen (they had a flourishing arms industry themselves), but here on the mainland it often seems more the rule than the exception. Then the Polish option would again be obvious.



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[Jim McDougall]

Actually the British did NOT have a flourishing blade industry, and did not make any particular advances into this until the latter 18th c. If you read the threads on Shotley Bridge here, this circumstance has been brilliantly researched by Keith Fisher over some years, and his book "The Crown and the Crossed Swords"is one of the most informative references on this subject available in my opinion.

Solingen did have the most dynamic blade making industry however, and by the 1780s in Great Britain, there were only three blade makers of note, despite incidental production elsewhere, most notable in Shotley. However in most cases, it was German blades that dominated, leading to the so called 'sword scandals' led by Thomas Gill in Birmingham calling for more British production over German.

The Polish sword situation was with some blades from Solingen possibly, but in most cases it was blades from Lvov, and some Styrian locations. In "Origins of the Polish Saber" (Jan Ostrowski, 1979) it is noted that there were no blade producing centers in Hungary, as their blades were from Styrian centers typically. As Styria was of course a state in Austro-Hungary, the Austrian blades were also primarily from these regions.

The rose on the blade spine is interesting and is of course European, but not certain Solingen necessarily. Keep in mind that the Solingen shops adopted many names, markings, and affectations from other places which were added spuriously, often presenting difficulty in proper identifications.

As you correctly observe, fashion was key in the colorful pageantry of the cavalry especially in the 18th century into the Napoleonic wars. This was prevalent in the hussar regiments, whose character as dashing light cavalry inspired many countries to add such units to the long standing dragoon regiments . Light cavalry and hussars of course favored the saber, taken from the Turkish examples used by their formidable light cavalry forces and tactics.,

By the mid 18th century, throughout France, Germany, Austria, Netherlands etc. all were adding these hussar units, and of course, the saber. Actually there were units of Hungarian hussars in the French army and others.
This diffusion cannot even be remotely touched on here, so the 'styles' of sabers moving through Europe accordingly can well be imagined.

I must admit that even in the many years I have studied this history, I cannot claim any particular expertise, and am still learning, so finding it difficult to find specific answers and classifications is of course understandable. As noted, officers, particularly in these times, had their swords privately commissioned, and often these were to their own whims as well as with features of other forms. In many cases, cutlers who assembled and mounted swords used blades from various sources, and were often workers in precious metals who created hilts based on popular styles.

Identifying these kinds of swords relies on endless study, comparison, obscure resources, and items with sound provenance that has some reliable documentation. It is a relentless, fascinating and often obsessive pursuit, so ......welcome to the chase!!!!
You clearly have a discerning eye, this saber is outstanding and again, in my opinion most likely Polish, or of Polish character, as shown. However, to say exactly what its circumstances were, where in the cavalries of Eastern Europe it was used. With only the popular 18th c. standard military flourish in blade decoration and no distinct cyphers etc.it is hard to say more.

[Radboud]

What a great sword you have Cel7. Lovely curved blade with that clipped point. Or what the French call a 'carp's tongue'.

Going by the blade shape, features, and the lion or dog head pommel, this is not a British officer's sword. Importantly it doesn't have the GR cypher on the blade, which combined with the other features rules out British in my opinion.

My vote would be German states, Switzerland or further east, the link Jim posted is a very real possibility too.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The rose on the blade spine is interesting and is of course European, but not certain Solingen necessarily. Keep in mind that the Solingen shops adopted many names, markings, and affectations from other places which were added spuriously, often presenting difficulty in proper identifications.

Going by the Rose, the cartouch on the ricasso and the trophy of arms this is almost certainly a Solingen-made blade, late 18th Cent to very early 19th Cent.

[Jim McDougall]

Good note on the rose, and it seems I have seen this someplace but as yet unable to retrieve....what is the Solingen connection with rose on blade spine?
As far as I have known the British placed makers names on spines in latter 18th through 19th, and some Austrian blades have them, as well of course as French.

Blade decoration using these kinds of motifs was by no means a Solingen distinction, and European blades in Eastern Europe often have profuse themes, with hussars, 'vivat pandour', panoplies of arms etc. As noted, Solingen often duplicated many of these along with their use of spurious markings.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good note on the rose, and it seems I have seen this someplace but as yet unable to retrieve....what is the Solingen connection with rose on blade spine?
As far as I have known the British placed makers names on spines in the latter 18th through 19th, and some Austrian blades have them, as well of course as French.

I don't think the significance of the rose is known yet, just that they appeared on Solingen-made blades around the late 18th Century and stopped showing up on blades around the 1820s when the style of cartouch on Solingen blades changed as well.

Some Rose marked blades have the maker or exporter logo in the cartouch, while others show just the cartouch.

Then again, the Rose is not always present on all Solingen blades either. J J Runkel had his name engraved on the spine, while one of my Dutch sabres has the Dutch cutler's name in its place. Smallsword blades don't seem to have it either, while I've seen it on spadroon blades.

There's a lot of variation in style as well, and we can say with confidence that the Solingen blade smiths were happy to change decoration to suit their buyers' tastes.

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted, the Solingen shops were masters at appeasing clientele and use of all manner of motif, marks, wording etc.
John Justus Runkel was a London based supplier who brought blades in from Solingen (I think from one family in particular, I think it was Neff) then applied his name to the blade spine, and sold them to cutlers.

In rechecking Seifert (1962) in the plate I do see the similarity between the 'carps tongue' and 'pandour' points, and these clipped points seem somewhat in between. I recall seeing French blades with these kinds of point (blade tip).

In the straight saber deemed a M1780 (not an official pattern) British which has a somewhat similar tip but more subdued. As the British used German blades so consistently, this one seemed Solingen though by this time the British were producing some blades.

* example 'e' Seifert I have seen termed 'quill point'.
the example with widened point (Persian) the feature is the 'yelman' which I was once told by a Polish fencing master/historian was referred to as 'the feather', but actually intended to add weight and momentum to the cut.

Still curious on this rose design on hilts, any other examples?

[cel7]

Thanks for your input! Very educational to discuss this.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

John Justus Runkel was a London based supplier who brought blades in from Solingen (I think from one family in particular, I think it was Neff) then applied his name to the blade spine, and sold them to cutlers.

According to Richard Daller in "British Cavalry Swords" Runkel had married into the Neff family. Certainly their mark has been found on the tang of some of the blades he sold.

Also, I suspect that Runkel imported his blades complete with his name and decoration on them. To engrave them himself would mean that he needed to reapply the blue and gilt again.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still curious on this rose design on hilts, any other examples?

Do you mean on the spine? I'll start up another thread.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent, a great topic and its own thread a great move.