Interesting saber

[Turkoman.khan]

Hi guys.
I apologize in advance to the moderators for posting my topic in this section. I understand that the saber is European. However, the blade is maybe oriental. And undoubtedly the inscription on the blade is oriental.
My friend bought this saber for his collection. And he asks you to help him find out more about this saber.
Thanks in advance to everyone for your help.

[thinreadline]

the hilt is a British Royal Navy sword hilt of the Victorian period as is the scabbard

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

the hilt is a British Royal Navy sword hilt of the Victorian period as is the scabbard

Thanks for the info.
Perhaps someone can help with the translation of the inscription on the blade?

[milandro]

Probably Wilkinson's was commissioned a naval sword to an officer whom had received this as a gift. It may be Turkish blade ( I suppose someone with the right knowledge could tell from the cartouche the maker) since I've seen some similar swords ( I mean the pattern) being used by officers of the Turkish navy, for example, in WWI.

[Edward C.]

Is there a number anywhere? IIRC, Wilkinson did keep records which may still be available.

[milandro]

this thread got me curious and I was researching the matter of Turkish blades fitten on to western swords.

Found a few auctions (completed) where, for example , and Italian maker had fitted a Turkish blade (not looking like yours ) onto a similar type of sabre , my guess is that when we find someone able to read the cartouche, it will read either the name of the maker or it would say something traditional or perhaps even religious

[Gustav]

Is that a fuller running across the blade?
I have my doubts regarding the blade and age of koftgari(?) on it.

[milandro]

I don't see any fuller, it may be a trick of the eye due to reflection.

What makes you think that the blade is not contemporary to the sabre? Mounting a new blade onto this would have been a very tricky thing to do and would have certainly left noticeable marks

[Gustav]

I recognize a fuller at the blade section with koftgari through a reflection, and I see a similar reflection further down the blade.

More pics of the blade could help.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a nice example of the standard M1827 sword for Royal British naval officers, which remained in use through the 19th c. into the 20th. The more modern examples have much lighter blades as introduced in 1929.

It seems the blade likely is with Ottoman affectation and gilt with inscription probably for a naval officer perhaps affiliated with the Royal Naval base at Aden, in Arabia. This was an active naval port and entrepot charged with control of Aden to the Hadhramaut to the east in Yemen. This port and station became key after the opening of the Suez canal in 1869, and remained so until 1960s.

Wilkinson was of course a London maker specializing in officers swords which were indeed serial numbered, but also supplied these to military outfitters, which often existed in these colonial outposts. As Aden was officially part of the Bombay Presidency, such an outfitter may have been in Bombay, or indeed in Aden, whichever the case, the Ottoman presence and influence was at hand.

British officers in colonial regions often adopted influences of the local cultures in arms and fashion, so this kind of cross diffusion is not unusual.
In India there were Indian hilts on British blades, and sometimes vice versa.
There is also the possibility of this sword being intended as a diplomatic gift.
This blade is British and certainly not Ottoman nor Indian, and there is no reason to think it is not homogenous to this sword.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems the blade likely is with Ottoman affectation and gilt with inscription probably for a naval officer perhaps affiliated with the Royal Naval base at Aden, in Arabia. This was an active naval port and entrepot charged with control of Aden to the Hadhramaut to the east in Yemen. This port and station became key after the opening of the Suez canal in 1869, and remained so until 1960s.

Wilkinson was of course a London maker specializing in officers swords which were indeed serial numbered, but also supplied these to military outfitters, which often existed in these colonial outposts. As Aden was officially part of the Bombay Presidency, such an outfitter may have been in Bombay, or indeed in Aden, whichever the case, the Ottoman presence and influence was at hand.

This blade is British and certainly not Ottoman nor Indian, and there is no reason to think it is not homogenous to this sword.

Well, the Koftgari(?) appears to claim, according to auction house, it is a work of Ustad Husayn from Tehran?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, the Koftgari(?) appears to claim, according to auction house, it is a work of Ustad Husayn from Tehran?

Well that complicates things doesnt it? In Arabia Persian blades were most highly regarded, but this blade is hardly Persian nor is the sword obviously. So the koftgari is the only 'work' pertaining to this individual. Not sure why a British naval sword would be in Tehran, unless the blade was of other than British manufacture, went through Tehran, then through the gulf into Arabia etc.
It seems Wilkinson produced the entire sword with officers swords, and perhaps they had blades decorated there? Then possibly the Aden idea leaves the equation.

[Gustav]

Jim, what was given in the translation provided by auction house is

"The work of Ustada Husayn in the blessed armoury(?)... Tehran"
"amal-i ustad husayn / dar jaba-kha(na)-yi? mubaraka... Tahra"

Who knows how precise the reading and translation is.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Jim, what was given in the translation provided by auction house is

"The work of Ustada Husayn in the blessed armoury(?)... Tehran"
"amal-i ustad husayn / dar jaba-kha(na)-yi? mubaraka... Tahra"

Who knows how precise the reading and translation is.

Interesting, didnt makers in Persia/Iran put a date with their signature?
Also interesting to see a 19th c. straight blade made in Iran.
Remarkable koftgari work though and compelling translation.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, the Koftgari(?) appears to claim, according to auction house, it is a work of Ustad Husayn from Tehran?

How did you get the auction house information? It might have been helpful if this had been included in the OP, or anywhere rather than the guessing game . While ratiocination is entertaining, the available information included WITH the query gives us a better idea of which way to go in trying to answer.

[Gustav]

I got it simply by searching.

Actually I have nothing more to say as I already did in #7 - I have my doubts regarding the blade and age of koftgari(?) on it. It is as far from my area of interest in edged weapons as NP from SP.

I asked a question if there is a fuller running across the blade. Now I also would ask, if it is common for Wilkinson swords, where the blade is homogenous to the sword, with no reasons against that fact, to have such an opening at blade/hilt joint. I would also ask, if such a flaw running across the blade is acceptable on a sword blade made by Wilkinson.

Is there a possibility this koftgari is recently refurbished or, let's say, repainted, or perhaps, even recently created? I think there is.

I do not have a nice story with geographical locations included for it - this sword raises only questions to me.

The auction house put it on auction twice, it was bought at the second time, it was sold under the estimate. The auction house did not post a picture of the entire blade, only hilt and the koftgari part. So I repeat - it would be interesting to have more pics of it, particularly of the part where koftgari ends till the point.

[milandro]

If the sword in question has a serial number (which OP hasn't shared yet), it may be found in the archives

https://www.armsresearch.co.uk/Wilki...n%20Swords.htm


Perhaps someone has already purchased this photographic records


Incidentally, I have found the auction house ad, since it is a completed auction it should be OK to publish its address

https://www.olympiaauctions.com/sale.../view-lot/259/

[Tim Simmons]

Not my area in anyway but interesting. I think mark where the sword goes into the guard is just worn gilding from the scabbard throat?

[Tim Simmons]

Ah I see what "milandro" is on about. The profile of opening for the blade is wrong for this decorated blade.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Ah I see what "milandro" is on about. The profile of opening for the blade is wrong for this decorated blade. The hole looks made for a heavier blade and I suspect it more of a heavier curved cavalry blade. A proper sabre.

I suspect you got me confused with Gustav whom, I think, has perplexities on the fitting of the blade (which I may share after seeing his highlighted pictures).

It would be most unusual, though, that this would have a cavalry blade since the guard is most positively one for navy ( very prominent anchor).

Something may be the matter.

There may have been legitimate reasons why this blade is there or fishy ones (you see the navy connection? )

[Gustav]

...

[Tim Simmons]

Having dismissed the curved sabre blade I have found this I will add the link . 1827

[Tim Simmons]

More stuff here that suggest some variants are around.

https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.co...al-navy-swords

[Gustav]

Yes, Tim, I also thought a reforged pipeback could be the explanation of that strange diagonal fuller, if there is any at all.

[Tim Simmons]

I think you are spot on something fishy here. If it was a special Wilkinson's fit up or conversion, with such lavish decoration, clearly for a high ranking bod then I think they would have made the blade fit properly.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gustav

I got it simply by searching.

Actually I have nothing more to say as I already did in #7 - I have my doubts regarding the blade and age of koftgari(?) on it. It is as far from my area of interest in edged weapons as NP from SP.

I asked a question if there is a fuller running across the blade. Now I also would ask, if it is common for Wilkinson swords, where the blade is homogenous to the sword, with no reasons against that fact, to have such an opening at blade/hilt joint. I would also ask, if such a flaw running across the blade is acceptable on a sword blade made by Wilkinson.

Is there a possibility this koftgari is recently refurbished or, let's say, repainted, or perhaps, even recently created? I think there is.

I do not have a nice story with geographical locations included for it - this sword raises only questions to me.

The auction house put it on auction twice, it was bought at the second time, it was sold under the estimate. The auction house did not post a picture of the entire blade, only hilt and the koftgari part. So I repeat - it would be interesting to have more pics of it, particularly of the part where koftgari ends till the point.

Well done by searching for the auction material Gustav, as I noted, it would have been helpful if the OP included that information, which was likely not provided to Turkoman so understandable. This is common in third party postings.

Also I very much appreciate your forensic analysis of the sword, and explaining your deductions which are most helpful as well as elucidating.
With my entries, as more a historian, I do tend to suggest possible historic contexts which might explain the context of these kinds of anomalies, as they are IMO most intriguing so I do tend to create 'stories'.
My intent is to present hopefully reasonably plausible circumstances in which the weapon might have been involved.

Having noted that, I will say that in accord with your observations on the blade, this is clearly not a Wilkinson blade as seen by the lack of ricasso as well as nature of the fullers which you have been observing.
Regarding the questions of serial numbers on Wilkinson swords, as I understand these are typically placed on the spine of the blade. Wilkinson began its sword production with those for officers in mid 19th c. with early numbers used in 1850s. It did not become Wilkinson Sword Co. until 1891 so that would suggest the sword was probably post that date.
I am not familiar with the name being placed on the locket in this manner.
Having noted that, and the fact that Wilkinson always placed its name on the blade, along with the familiar 'Star of David' surround with brass proof plug at center. It is tempting to imagine this arrangement with the Wilkinson on the locket may have been due to the absence of the blade for appropriate placement of the attribution to that company.

In this period, there had been ongoing often strained detente between Great Britain and Iran primarily involving strategic geography in the Middle East and Central Asia in which England was trying to protect its 'jewel, India.
It would not be hard to imagine such a sword fashioned with such a blade and involved in these 'diplomatic' relations in what was known as 'The Great Game' (Peter Hopkirk's book by that title).
So I would shift the 'theater' of my 'story' from Ottoman context (now that we know the script in the koftgari is Persian) in Arabia to more direct contact between Great Britain and Iran, probably around turn of the century.

With that, I'll leave the forensics to the experts.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Gustav

It is as far from my area of interest in edged weapons as NP from SP.


Is there a possibility this koftgari is recently refurbished or, let's say, repainted, or perhaps, even recently created? I think there is..

NP from SP? Sorry I feel a bit obtuse.

This made me look more closely at the pictures. In Turkoman's eighth picture of the original post, and the final one of the koftgari, there does appear to be a grid of awl marks. So, there was encrustation work done on the blade at some point. Is it original, I would love to know! I made a thread enquiring about these and other floral motifs about six months ago in the Miscellaneous forum and did not get any takers. I am in the process of my own research and if I ever get satisfactory information I will revive it someday if another doesn't first.

[Jim McDougall]

The application of koftgari on an older blade seems to have been often a case, as with this form of Indian tulwar (of Persian form) which IMO is from the Deccan. It is mounted with a British M1788 light cavalry saber blade, and as can be seen, decorated with koftgari, but in limited field at the forte.

While it is tempting to think of this as from the early period after Seringapatam (1799) and affiliated with East India Company, there are any number of possibilities (many possible stories ) . The point pertains to the koftgari application associated with British swords and blades in the colonial sphere.

[Gustav]

North Pole/South Pole