Could the eyelash mark originate from Vienna ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note from atkinson-swords at http://atkinson-swords.com/marks-and...rif-stamp.html a well placed sentence Quote'' Sword blade "blanks" may originate in many countries and were desirable trade goods. Marks added to such blades do not necessarily indicate the forge, armory or original sword-smith. Rather, they may be added locally as markers of quality or "power" of the blade. For example, the "eyelash" or "sickle" marks of Genoa and elsewhere are well known and often imitated, that is, added to blades originating in Germany or the Caucasus. The Mazir-i-Sharif stamp was added to edged weapons and coins in Kabul, Afghanistan.'' Unquote.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I am by no way a specialist, but my guess is, that the very deep marks were made while the steel was very warm, and the not so deep marks were made when the steel was cold.

[kronckew]

they persist into modern times as well, in my georgian khevsurli sword...

gratuitous marking on another probably older khukuri included for comparison.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I am by no way a specialist, but my guess is, that the very deep marks were made while the steel was very warm, and the not so deep marks were made when the steel was cold.

I ask a similar question at #28 . We simply do not know if the strike was made at the anvil when the blade was hot or ... Were the marks done on a cold blade in a different country? It is known that many blades were suited up later with blade marks but we don't know if they were done on the forge hot or cold.

[DavidFriedman]

Greetings all,
This blade has what appears to be remnants of eyelash marks. The triple dots that are found at the terminations of the crescents remain. Both sides feature the same markings. Also there is a micro remnant of an eyelash crescent on one side of the blade. Not sure if it shows in these photos.

The blade is of exceptional quality. Light, flexible and narrow. Hilted on a tiger hilt. Not sure the coating on the hilt (any insight would be great there too).

So in your opinions, does this appear to be an Italian import blade? Or possibly an Indian made variant. Blade has a long indentation along the base of the spine for the first 7 or 8 inches from the guard.

Thanks.

[Jim McDougall]

An interesting saber, and with this tiger form hilt of course suggesting the regalia of the celebrated ruler of Mysore, Tipu Sultan, who was killed by British forces at Seringapatam in 1799.
In observing this sword from photos, it is of course hard to say with certainty that it is of the period, especially as such weapons were produced in a commemorative sense for some time after this.

However, the blade on this example may be Styrian, a region in Austria which closely followed many Italian blade producing conventions, which included the use of the famed 'sickle marks' (eyelashes) . These markings were typically deemed "Genoan' but in actuality were used in numerous North Italian blade making centers, with Genoa the part of departure for these exports.

Styrian blade making centers produced blades for various East European countries including Hungary. The rest of Europe, notably France, became enamored of the colorful hussar cavalry units and the influences of their uniforms and weapons as well as numbers of Hungarian officers and troops joined their ranks in the latter 18th c.

The French were situated in India to the east in the coastal region of Pondicherry in the mid 18th century and later, allied with some of the Indian states in the antagonizing of the British interests there.

Tipu Sultan had of course notable disdain for the British, and often had French advisors and supplied materials so 'by the numbers' it is possible that a Styrian blade, via French presence, might have come into Mysori hands and been used in this type of Mysori saber.

The sickle marks seem in the proper configuration, and the three dots punched deeply while the arcs normally present are indiscernible in these images.

I am not aware of Indian blades using these multiple fullers in this manner and the blade, though recalling certain Italian storta style forms, seems more probably Styrian IMO.

Hope this helps, despite clearly speculation and the tenuous possible solution.

[DavidFriedman]

Thank you Jim, for your detailed thoughts on it. My saber actually came with a yali tipped knuckle bow guard, which was so close to the hilt that it came off when my friend tried to wield it.

I do feel strongly that this blade is European. Thank you for the confirmation in regards to the double fullers.

Cheers

[DavidFriedman]

Here is another Tulwar with a very similar blade, in terms of fullers, hollow grooved spine, and similar eyelash marking stamps. Just much heavier and not as nimble.

Would you say that both blades would have originated in the same workshop?

[DavidFriedman]

More pics of larger Tulwar

[Jim McDougall]

Yes the first 'Tipu' style saber has a 'European' blade, as Styria is a region in Austria, considered part of Europe.

The tulwar is also a remarkable sword, and if these are both yours, you seem to have a most discerning eye for notable examples. While the blade is multi fullered in similar manner, the blade with widened distal end (yelman) and the hollowed spine suggest more Central Asian, perhaps Caucasian origin. However the blunted blade near hilt suggests possible North Indian origin, with this feature termed 'the Indian ricasso'.

It is a northern tulwar, and in typical Indo-Persian form with the disc pommel etc. of Rajasthani style and with that seemingly canted it seems again to call on certain Central Asian conventions . The notable 'sickle marks' seem remarkably well executed , but these are well known on Caucasian made blades as 'gurda'.
The form of tulwar prevalent in Afghanistan (paluoar)with quite distinctly different features than Indo-Persian (downturned quillons, bowl type pommel) is known to most often have sickle marks on the blade, while they do not seem as prevalent on blades to the south except as noted with European blades.

Attached N.Indian (Afghan) paluoar, note the sickle marks on Indian blade made, with these virtually ubiquitous on these Afghan swords'blades.
Next is an old Mughal tulwar with the distinctive Central Asian style yelman, widened point. This feature was designed to add impetus to the deadly draw cut which was a characteristic method in mounted swordsmanship favored by these tribal warriors.

[DavidFriedman]

Thanks Jim,
I have ordered the larger disk pommel Tulwar, but it isn’t on hand yet, awaiting customs paperwork etc.

Thanks you for your kind words, and your thoughts on the larger tulwars blade.

The photos of the tiger hilt Tulwar weren’t super clear on some areas. The tiger hilt saber has the same type of hollowed spine (for the first part of the blades length, just narrower but in the same ratio to the spine as the disk pommel tulwar), also has a razor sharp yelman, albeit non protruding from the line of the blades spine.

Could the larger Tulwar with disk pommel possibly have been made in the Caucasus or Central Asia for a North Indian client? One who would request the Indian ricasso.

Thanks.

[Jim McDougall]

David,
It is mostly about trade blades, not clientele. Caucasian blades were popular in Arabia, and Arab regions which of course led into regions in India. It would be difficult to pinpoint the networks and entrepots in which these blades would reach the locations where these swords were mounted.

There were locations in India where blades were produced, and hilts were produced in other locations, with many in Rajasthan. Often these hilts were sent to other locations where locally favored decoration was applied, and blades mounted.

The study of Indian arms is complex, and as always there are many exceptions and variations, but in my experience most of these multi fuller blades seem to be either European or from Caucasian exports which often ended up going into Arab trade networks. In the 19th century Persian trade blades began to show up in these blade commodities. such as the noted 'Assad Adullah' examples .
Again, always exceptions, and the hollowed spine on the Mysori saber is intriguing.

[DavidFriedman]

Thanks Jim!
Later I’ll upload some closer pics of the Mysore hilt blade channeling on the spine etc.

[kronckew]

qalso have a pulwar with 3 sets of eyelash markings along the right side of tye unfullered blade:

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks David, like to see pics of that spine.
I found a plate of blade cross sections of Polish and in degree Hungarian swords in "Cecia Prazdziwa Szabla" , Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989, p.62,
which shows several blade sections with 'indented spine', probably 18th into early 19th c.

Polish swords (and Hungarian) had blades made in Lvov (once Poland-Lithuania, then Austria now western Ukraine) typically Armenian makers; Graz and several other cities in Styria (SE Austria).
Lvov had prevalent trade contact with Venice, and all of these were in the complex geopolitical network of the Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire).

The well known 'sickle' marks traveled through all these networks becoming a symbolic device subtly denoting quality and were widely copied and used in various configurations and applications.
The markings became notably used in Styrian blades, and it is believed that through Genoan trade networks in the Black Sea they entered the Caucasian sphere, becoming known as 'gurda' (=good blade).

Wayne, outstanding paluoar!!! and to see these 'sickles' placed multiply as well as 'strategically' as often seen on Indian blades where the three dots (trimurti) are often placed at key locations on blades.

Pics attached of a Khevsur 'pranguli' (Caucasian Georgia late 19th c) with blade believed of Ataghi aul (Chechnya) using the 'gurda' in linear motif, reflectjng the potential talismanic imbuement of multiples. I have seen similar linear application of these 'sickles' on some Indian swords.

[DavidFriedman]

Wow, that’s a lot of eyelash/gurda marks on the Georgian/ Chechnyan saber. Beautiful blade.

Wayne’s Pulwar is very nice too.

Here are some more close up pics of the blade. The indented spine only extends 7 inches, up to the point (I don’t know the name of this feature) where the spine of the blade dips inwards about 1/16 of an inch. Where the blade maintains a broadness of 1 inch until the yelman.

The first 2 inches of the front of the blade (ricasso) is dull. Yelman is a bit over 9 inches.

A very light and nimble dancer.