Would you call this a small Machete ... or not ?

[fernando]

What do you Gentlemen make of this ? Would there be a name of it ?
I bought it in a local street fair. Its 'all steel' manufacture looks European ... to me. Possibly not mass production, although a very accurate work; we can even see a light ridge in the point section. A very solid piece. Some spots of active rust here and there, that i have to deal with ... without erasing its patina; hoping its age goes back to the 19th century.
Length 18" ( 46 cms.) Weight 474 grams.


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[fernando]

Moving this one to the Ethno forum.

[BBJW]

Looks like something I made in high school metal shop.--bbjw

[M ELEY]

Very interesting piece! The blade proportions and shape remind me of a Chinese dao, but the 'handle' is so 'tool' shaped. If this were only a few inches, that grip would make me think it was a scalpel or a wood-working tool, but at 18" !? Not so sure...

[fernando]

Thanks much, Gentlemen. So ... definitely not a standard pattern thing. And not a kitchen knife, either . Dare i say its blade has a Bowie touch... in a custom made fashion ...

[Interested Party]

Agricultural tool?

[fernando]

I don't think so. The front section has a (weapon) knife shape; whether a workshop exercise or the real thing.

[Jim McDougall]

IMO, most definitely a 'machete' and as these were locally made usually by blacksmiths, there is no 'standard' simply a pragmatic following of general functional form for an agricultural tool.
The term 'machete' has a pretty tortured etymology stemming loosely from Latin terms for hammer or club, which became 'mazo' (=club, Sp.) then more dramatic 'macho' (=sledge hammer).
The term 'machete' is Spanish diminutive to that term, which became assoc. with these heavy chopping tools.

As they were open hilted and resembling short swords, they often found use aboard Spanish ships (examples found on Atocha wreck, 1622; and Maravillas wreck 1649) as weapons but more ashore for clearing through vegetation. The use of 'machetes' as weapons is well known to the present day, and tools as weapons to weapons as tools, is a pretty standard exchange. I would note that many of the 'machetes' (later becoming 'cutlasses' by term) came from these used by Basque peasantry in fields and ended up on vessels out of the well known port of Bilbao ("Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets", Noel Wells, 2006).

It is always hard to identify privately made knives and tools as they are typically unmarked, only nominally follow established forms, and as they remained in use for generations, were traded or sold off without provenance its anybodys guess. The blade tip does have a Bowie gestalt so could very well be Spanish colonial and probably 19th c. possibly early. As well observed by Mark, the blade tip does have a remarkable resemblance to the short and heavy Chinese da dao. Chinese influences were of course well known in that far western part of the 'Spanish Main', in the Philippines.

[fernando]

Thank you for your input, Jim. My asking if this thing is a machete was more to define whether its form fitted in the tradionally machete known way and not the ethimology of the term; which, not wishing (or afford) to be academic, its origin is not so solid. Look how the various Spanish sources deal with the term in its acceptations.
The origin of the term machete is unknown, but it is mostly believed that it is a diminutive of macho. Another possibility is that it comes from the term machaera and this one in turn from the Greek μάχαιρα, which the Romans used to describe the Iberian falcata with similar characteristics.
This word is etymologically composed of the Latin «marcŭlus» small martillo or male and the suffix «ete» which indicates diminutive with affective expressions and at the same time as derogatory.
Although its name is Spanish, possibly derived from 'macho', its ancestors are located at the dawn of history. The investigators are inclined to label the falchion as its most dangerous parent, whose appearance is located in Europe in the XI century.
And last but not least, although for the fun of it, the machete term in Spanish school lexicon, is a 'cheat sheet' implement .

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=fernando;282829]Thank you for your input, Jim. My asking if this thing is a machete was more to define whether its form fitted in the tradionally machete known way and not the ethimology of the term; which, not wishing (or afford) to be academic, its origin is not so solid. Look how the various Spanish sources deal with the term in its acceptances.
The origin of the term machete is unknown, but it is mostly believed that it is a diminutive of macho. Another possibility is that it comes from the term machaera and this one in turn from the Greek μάχαιρα, which the Romans used to describe the Iberian falcata with similar characteristics.
This word is etymologically composed of the Latin «marcŭlus» small martillo or male and the suffix «ete» which indicates diminutive with affective expressions and at the same time as derogatory.
Although its name is Spanish, possibly derived from 'macho', its ancestors are located at the dawn of history. The investigators are inclined to label the falchion as its most dangerous parent, whose appearance is located in Europe in the XI century.
And last but not least, although for the fun of it, the machete term in Spanish school lexicon, is a 'cheat sheet' implement .[/QUOTE

The point I was making is that the term machete, and as I described its tortured etymology are of little help in the endless struggle to classify weapon examples in certain pigeon holes. The Spanish colonial espada ancha for example, was never colloquially called that, it was referred to as a MACHETE. The term never arise until a misunderstanding by arms writers in the 1970s. In shipboard records and inventories of 17th centuries, short heavy bladed swords (with open hilts) were sometimes called machetes, sometimes cutlasses.
It pretty much depended on who was using it, when, where and what for. If it was chopping wood or brush it was a machete, when used as a weapon, a sword or whatever.

[Gavin Nugent]

Looks a lot like a "No Spin" vintage throwing knife to me, but at 18 inches, one would have to ask why? Many vintage throwing knives share this handle profile though.

If a Machete, it looks simple, robust and practical enough, but why 6" long grip when 4" would suffice and offer better reach and fulcrum point... the grip does not look practical for a machete application.

The length falls around a Smatchet length, being used for chopping and thrusting, which the blade shape provides, but typically these also have a short handle and a Bolo type blade.

The handle profile also reminds me a lot of the old French made "Navaja", made for local and export markets, many contracted by Spanish guilds.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In shipboard records and inventories of 17th centuries, short heavy bladed swords (with open hilts) were sometimes called machetes, sometimes cutlasses.It pretty much depended on who was using it , when, where and what for. If it was chopping wood or bush it was a machete, when used as a weapon, a sword or whatever.

Indeed Jim. You take the Portuguese example, in that we call the 'generic' machete a 'CATANA'. Reason why ?

The term Catana was incorporated into the Portuguese language in the 16th century, after the arrival of the Portuguese in Japan. For this reason, in these almost five hundred years, this word has lost its Japanese pronunciation, becoming Portuguese and gaining new meanings in Portuguese, especially in the European, African and Asian variants, designating a variety of objects such as swords, sabers or machetes.

I have phoned this morning my favorite ironmonger, whom i know sells these things as tools. He didn't even know that his Catanas are (also) called machetes !

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

... Looks a lot like a "No Spin" vintage throwing knife to me, but at 18 inches, one would have to ask why? Many vintage throwing knives share this handle profile though....

Thank you Gavin. Throwing knives can be rather long, specially those 'no spin' ones used in circus.
Still i doubt this is the case, as its point is not symmetrical, wile (human) target throwing blades must be.
See the one i once owned, that was considered a circus example. Its length is 35 cms., but it goes longer, when having its wooden grip.
On the other hand, the 'bowie' type tip in the discussed example must point to something.

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[Rick]

Could this be a Fishmonger's chopper?
It would be handy for taking the head and tail off a smaller Tuna such as a Bonito.

Butcher's knife 17.5 inches oa.
Similar blade profile and point.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

Could this be a Fishmonger's chopper?
It would be handy for taking the head and tail off a smaller Tuna such as a Bonito.

I don't know what to say, Rick; only that, although this is an 'unexpected' suggestion, i can not reject it, as plausible; the throw is right, as is the weight.
Meanwhile i decided to give it a soft clean.


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[milandro]

there has to be a very specific reason to make a forged integral hilt for a knife, it is makes it very heavy and it uses a lot of steel which in times past was an expensive commodity.

The throwing knife had crossed my mind . Maybe there are other uses to a throwing knife than just create a recreational thrill.

[fernando]

Perspective noted, milandro .

[Jerseyman]

Perhaps it might be a 19C circus throwing knife? Performance throwing knives are made deliberately larger to be seen at a distance. The form seems right for that function...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

Could this be a Fishmonger's chopper?
It would be handy for taking the head and tail off a smaller Tuna such as a Bonito.

Butcher's knife 17.5 inches oa.
Similar blade profile and point.

Butcher's or fishmonger's, Rick ?. This new picture is convincing .

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

Perhaps it might be a 19C circus throwing knife? Performance throwing knives are made deliberately larger to be seen at a distance. The form seems right for that function...

it is a very good possibility.

Throwing a knife needed to be seen at some distance, however throwing a large and heavy knife needs a person to match and would need to be a very large person.

Why would anyone use a massive hilt like that on a butcher or fishmonger's knife?

[fernando]

Milandro and Jerseyman, still the form is not right for a throwing knife. Look at the tip; the thrower would not risk to lose direction showing off with that bowie (non symmetric) head and perforate the human target.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Gavin. Throwing knives can be rather long, specially those 'no spin' ones used in circus.
Still i doubt this is the case, as its point is not symmetrical, wile (human) target throwing blades must be.
See the one i once owned, that was considered a circus example. Its length is 35 cms., but it goes longer, when having its wooden grip.
On the other hand, the 'bowie' type tip in the discussed example must point to something.

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There is a large misconception that throwing knives must be symmetrical.

https://blademag.com/knife-collectin...-knives-tested

The same pattern seen in the top knife is also seen in vintage examples too.

Originally Posted by fernando

Milandro and Jerseyman, still the form is not right for a throwing knife. Look at the tip; the thrower would not risk to lose direction showing off with that bowie (non symmetric) head and perforate the human target.

A little looking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW4fDMn251c

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

Butcher's or fishmonger's, Rick ?. This new picture is convincing .

I struggle with the notion... fish handling is s slippery business and a cold business... I feel something on that ilk would have a larger warmer timber grip with a pommel end of hook larger than the grip for safer handling too....

[Rick]

Hi Gavin, I threw that out there mainly because the profile was similar to the knife that Fernando has shown. The length is about the same, the scales are wood and are certainly thicker than the subject example. The knife I posted is a Dexter, probably late 19century made in my home state.
Fernando's example appears to have metal scales (or are they integral) which makes for a much thinner handle, and probably makes it more awkward to use for cutting but the blade profile seems more like a butcher/fish cutter's knife. I searched ebay for fish cutting and butcher's knives and I found that the modern Dexter knives have a textured handle, but for the most part none of them seemed to have a thickening or knob at the end.
Fernando, is the tip of this knife thicker than the rest of the blade?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

we can even see a light ridge in the point section. A very solid piece.

I'm seeing the tip area as being a spear tip with the top and bottom edges tapering away to a cutting edge from a central medial ridge... if I am reading the photo correctly, this is very much a weighted piercing tip.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

... Fernando's example appears to have metal scales (or are they integral) which makes for a much thinner handle ...

Integral steeel handle.

Originally Posted by Rick

...Fernando, is the tip of this knife thicker than the rest of the blade?

No; same thickness as that of the forte.

Hereunder some more specs.


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[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by fernando

Integral steeel handle.


No; same thickness as that of the forte.

Hereunder some more specs.


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it is very large for a throwing knife but its charachteristics and shape are quite correct for it to be a good throwing knife. can you show a view fomr the spine showing the blade taper?

i wounder how far back trick throwing of decdicate throwing knives goes in europe?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

it is very large for a throwing knife but its charachteristics and shape are quite correct for it to be a good throwing knife. can you show a view fomr the spine showing the blade taper?

i wonder how far back trick throwing of decdicate throwing knives goes in europe?

If i understand you correctly, it's a hell of a task to photograph the blade spine ... at least for me . But i can tell you that there is a sharp cutting edge, going sharper all the way since the forte to its tip, and a back (upper) side, slightly tapering from the blunt forte to its curved tip, and from there as sharp as the cutting edge. This of course calls for the machete (like) type and not for a throwing device.


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