my last keris

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

sorry David. I wanted to put the smiley with the eye that winks ... I clicked wrong. I'm sorry. What does terminologists of kitchens mean? I'm Italian and I don't know the meaning

Well language on an international forum is always a challenge. So it is possible that you did not fully understand what Alan was trying to tell you in post #23.
The word "dapur" that you are using actually translates to the english word "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesian. I have seen this word used in certain keris literature, but it is not the correct word for the shape or profile of a keris. Most of the words that we use in keris terminology that apply to Javanese keris are in fact Javanese words, not Bahasa Indonesian. The correct word you are looking for here is the Javanese word "dhapur", which translates into English as "shape" or "form".
There are a number of cases like this where a misused spelling gets repeated enough times that it becomes a common mistake. "Peksi" is another one i see frequently when referring to the tang of a blade. That word actually means "bird", often meaning a chicken, but the proper term is actually spelled "pesi".
I hope that clears things up.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marco,

Maybe the given pictures of three from my keris are helpful!
I feel the sarung for your keris is wrong, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef
my keris is like this

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Hello Detlef
my keris is like this

Sorry Marco, but i must point out that your keris is not like this. The keris in the image above is indeed properly oriented in the sheath. It is only the hilt that is oriented in reverse.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry Marco, but i must point out that your keris is not like this. The keris in the image above is indeed properly oriented in the sheath. It is only the hilt that is oriented in reverse.

Agree with David, sorry Marco.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Agree with David, sorry Marco.

there is only one small detail: the scabbard in the photo does not have a pendok and has the same painting on both sides. so by turning the scabbard 180 degrees when I extract the kris I have the handle in the right position to be held correctly in the hand. With a pendok scabbard this rotation to properly extract the kris would be an eyesore.

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

there is only one small detail: the scabbard in the photo does not have a pendok and has the same painting on both sides. so by turning the scabbard 180 degrees when I extract the kris I have the handle in the right position to be held correctly in the hand. With a pendok scabbard this rotation to properly extract the kris would be an eyesore.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The hilt on the keris in the photo simply needs to be rotated 180 degrees. Problem solved.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

there is only one small detail: the scabbard in the photo does not have a pendok and has the same painting on both sides. so by turning the scabbard 180 degrees when I extract the kris I have the handle in the right position to be held correctly in the hand. With a pendok scabbard this rotation to properly extract the kris would be an eyesore.

Dear Marco,
You can turn the keris with the painted scabbard completely when inside the scabbard or just the handle as you like and as many times as you like, it doesn't change the fact that the front of the blade points to the front of the scabbard. In the shown picture the handle simple shows to the wrong side.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

With a pendok scabbard this rotation to properly extract the kris would be an eyesore.

Disagree, the shown keris with the handle showing in the wrong direction is an eyesore!

Isn't it??

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Disagree, the shown keris with the handle showing in the wrong direction is an eyesore!

Isn't it??

Isn't it??

[David]

Gentlemen. I'm really not sure where this thread is going. None of the examples you have shown,Marco, present sheaths that have the keris in reverse position like your example is. That seems to be the really unusual aspect of your keris that we were all commenting on.
We have all seen Javanese hilts presented with the hilts reversed. Yes, even in published books. That does not necessarily mean that is the generally accepted position for such hilts. But yes, surely it happens.
So i am not sure what all these recent posts are trying to establish.
I respectfully suggest we move on to more fruitful topics.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Gentlemen. I'm really not sure where this thread is going. None of the examples you have shown,Marco, present sheaths that have the keris in reverse position like your example is. That seems to be the really unusual aspect of your keris that we were all commenting on.
We have all seen Javanese hilts presented with the hilts reversed. Yes, even in published books. That does not necessarily mean that is the generally accepted position for such hilts. But yes, surely it happens.
So i am not sure what all these recent posts are trying to establish.
I respectfully suggest we move on to more fruitful topics.

I apologize to you David but I find it correct to post this ... and then I shut up
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eris+Cengkrong

[milandro]

there is no doubt that that thread shows a similarly oriented kris as Marco's.

And Ganjawulung is in Jakarta so not an European intetpretation

We could postulate that this is " wrong" but if several people thought this was right then maybe is right.

I have looked it up and SOME Banyumas cengkrong keris, seem to conform to this " tradition", others don't. One thing is for sure, Marco is not alone in this.

[Sajen]

Marcos blade isn't a cengkrong blade!

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

there is no doubt that that thread shows a similarly oriented kris as Marco's.

And Ganjawulung is in Jakarta so not an European intetpretation

We could postulate that this is " wrong" but if several people thought this was right then maybe is right.

I have looked it up and SOME Banyumas cengkrong keris, seem to conform to this " tradition", others don't. One thing is for sure, Marco is not alone in this.

Well, "no doubt"? I couldn't say. Because those photos do not show us what it looks like from the top of the wrongko. Usually these hilts are not fixed in place so the hilt could have quite easily been turned around for the photo of when the blade is in the sheath. Not saying this is what was done. Only that there is certainly a possibility for doubt until a revealing photograph can be shown.
Now if indeed this is another example of a blade that actually is mounted in reverse position in the sheath then that make TWO. Two examples like this in all my years of looking at keris and all of Alan's years of looking at keris and all of Detlef's years, etc. etc. So if indeed you did find one other example (and i still have not seen the photograph that will prove that), then we still have an anomaly working here. Something far outside the norm. If the intention is to show that this reversal of position in the sheath is the accepted norm for keris of this type i believe we are a long way from that being shown.
So my only question here is why? Not why was it done, by why is it so important to establish this as being within the norms of Javanese keris culture. For myself, i have always appreciated the occasional oddity. And i am afraid that for the time being this remains an oddity. If it was mine i would simply enjoy it.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Marcos blade isn't a cengkrong blade!

Annnnnd....another good point.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Well, "no doubt"? I couldn't say. Because those photos do not show us what it looks like from the top of the wrongko. Usually these hilts are not fixed in place so the hilt could have quite easily been turned around for the photo of when the blade is in the sheath. Not saying this is what was done. Only that there is certainly a possibility for doubt until a revealing photograph can be shown.
Now if indeed this is another example of a blade that actually is mounted in reverse position in the sheath then that make TWO. Two examples like this in all my years of looking at keris and all of Alan's years of looking at keris and all of Detlef's years, etc. etc. So if indeed you did find one other example (and i still have not seen the photograph that will prove that), then we still have an anomaly working here. Something far outside the norm. If the intention is to show that this reversal of position in the sheath is the accepted norm for keris of this type i believe we are a long way from that being shown.
So my only question here is why? Not why was it done, by why is it so important to establish this as being within the norms of Javanese keris culture. For myself, i have always appreciated the occasional oddity. And i am afraid that for the time being this remains an oddity. If it was mine i would simply enjoy it.

some pics

[David]

Good detective work coming up with a few more examples of this odd positioning. But i would say that now the real detective work begins. Because surely the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that this is well outside the norm. Certainly the amount of keris oriented this way in the wrongko is far less than 1%. So the question here is not IF such orientation exists, however slight, but rather WHY this has been done in these rare cases.

[Marcokeris]

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

and are not rare case

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

and are not rare case

Of course it's rare. If someone like Alan Maisey states that "in over 70 years of handling & seeing keris I believe I have never seen an (apparently) professionally mounted keris set into its scabbard back to front" i don't know what else to call it.
You seem to be responding very defensively to remarks about this presentation. Obviously we aren't arguing with the fact that it exists and that others exist that are also mounted in this manner. The evidence is clear that examples exist.
I am not convinced that the reason is a simple as it could not enter the sheath properly if it wasn't reversed though. It still leaves us with the question of why is this the case and why do we have these blades that ignore the Javanese concept of condong leheh.

[A. G. Maisey]

The failure of a blade to enter an already existing scabbard is most certainly not any sort of a reason to reverse the correct position of a keris in its wrongko.

A halfway competent tukang wrongko or m'ranggi can always fit any blade to any wrongko, where a blade is so far outside the norm that it will not fit an existing wrongko, then a new wrongko will be made for it.

Now, this idea of "existing wrongko".

Yes, we can purchase low quality, premade wrongkos in a market, these pasar quality wrongkos are made with a very small hole, sometimes only a round, drilled hole, the fitting is done by first fitting the blade to the atasan (gambar), then the gandar is fitted to the atasan and the angle of gandar to atasan is fixed to accommodate the blade angle.

So we have a couple of examples of an incorrect blade fit.

I've never seen this, I've not heard of it, I cannot imagine its place in keris society. However, it does exist, so my only guess is that it was done to suit the personal philosophy of an individual.

Obviously an extremely rare variation, so I guess for some collectors whose knowledge of the keris is rooted in sources from outside Javanese keris society, this deviation in dress style might make this style of keris somewhat more desirable than would otherwise be the case.

[Marcokeris]

Could it be then that the scabbard suitable for receiving these dhapurs in the correct insertion (with minimal modification) is the sandang wailakat?

I write this because it is something that immediately catches my eye.

Furthermore, by rotating this scabbard by 180 degrees, as I had already written, could have a position of the kris in line with the tradition with which the kris is hung on a blawong and in line with the tradition with which the scabbard is held in hand correctly before to pull out the blade from the wailakat

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, I am unable to comment upon your hypotheticals, but I can say that I have owned & seen a lot of keris of these forms that have been fitted in the conventional fashion to sandang walikat wrongkos.

Incidentally, we do not ever "pull the blade from the scabbard", we gently press the part of the wrongko that is in front of the sirah cecak, away from the blade, ie, the wrongko is gently removed from the blade, the blade is not removed from the wrongko.

[Marcokeris]

Yes Alan, I know well how to remove the wrongko.

I posted this topic because didn't seem so meaningless to me and it was light years away from the idea of disturbing some collector or scholar.
I also posted it to spice up this forum with new topics. A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

[Gustav]

Radya Pustaka Museum

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Yes Alan, I know well how to remove the wrongko.

A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

I have to agree with you Marco, and not only the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left (with few notable exceptions of course)....

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Marco, you are very correct about the decrease in participation.

I've thought about this on & off for a long time, and other than the fact that the content of our posts tends towards a mature rather dry style, I really do not have any answers.

But that said, I have observed the style & content of the FB groups, and in terms of pure, supportable information this Keris Warung Forum does, I believe, have a great deal more to offer than any other discussion group of which I have knowledge.

Perhaps part of the problem might be that information is provided in response to questions, and most of the common questions have already been answered.

There are possibly only a very few people who are equipped to ask the uncommon questions, and even less people who can answer those questions. In fact, the really difficult questions seem to not yet have answers.

The FB groups seem to me to be rather socially orientated, social interaction seems to more prevalent than cold, hard facts.

Gustav:-

reverse mounting of a hilt is not really uncommon, the uncommon thing with Marco's keris is that it has been mounted back to front in the wrongko.

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I also posted it to spice up this forum with new topics. A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

The greatest of thanks from the bottom of my heart, Marco, for attempting to spice up the conversation in our sleepy little town.
As Alan has pointed out, much of the keris discussion has indeed moved to Facebook pages these days. I know this personally as i am also a moderator on not one, but two of these pages. The reasons for this migration are many.
On the language front, we are an English only forum, while FB pages allow their members to post in their native tongues. This is, of course, easier for Indonesian collectors, so they find these pages more accessible. Facebook has a built-in translation feature, though i must say that it does an awful job with Indonesian/Javanese languages. Unfortunately, our forum has no such bulit-in feature, so allowing folks to post in various languages is just not an option.
Secondly members of FB pages like the fact that there tends to be less, or less strictly regulated rules on these pages. For instance, even though the two pages i moderate do not allow selling, it is clear to me that many dealers use the pages just to display their wares and attract buyers. Of course, as a moderator i see a lot more of that than you and you may be surprised just how many on those posts never actually make it to the page. But clearly many of the posts that do are thinly veiled advertisements of keris for sale. That is obviously something we do not permit here and so we are not a friendly page for these particular members.
Thirdly, as Alan has suggested, these FB pages are far more social and less scholarly. That is not the fault of the Admins of these pages, who go to great lengths to have built up a couple of rather nice libraries of scholarly material in their "Files" sections. For me that is the best part of these FB pages, though i have a feeling only a very small percentage of members of those groups actually ever access any of these files.
Lastly, the levels of discussion on these pages rarely get beyond the cursory level. It is mostly just show and tell, often with the "tell" left off. I cannot even calculate the number of times i have asked members on these pages to elaborate on statements or support them with sources only to be met with either silence, or worse yet, indignation. Statements and claims are made regularly without any support and are simply expected to be accepted as fact without question. I am, of course, aware of certain members of good reputation that i know speak from a much deeper place of knowledge. But on a page that has more than 10,000 members it is just not possible to determine the veracity of claims that are not being backed up with anything further than "because i say so".
All this is to say that while i find these FB pages useful on many levels, i still come here when i hope to have engaging and thoughtful conversations that attempts to approach these discussions with some sense of scholarly review. And despite the possible use of different name handles, i do notice which members of the FB pages also feel the same and still post on this forum as well. You being one of them.
In the end, i am not sure there is really much that can be done to bring more collectors to our table if they are satisfied with the level of discussion they are finding in the more heavily trafficked FB pages. I do believe that it is the discerning collector who seeks as much knowledge a they can find that is wise enough to check out ALL the options for discussion they can find on the internet. It's really not too difficult to be open to all these different venues that are available as any of them are just a URL away and require just a stroke of the keyboard to arrive at.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Radya Pustaka Museum

Yes Gustav, the red signed keris has the inverted hilt in according with tradition.
It's a pity that in the Radia Pustaka Museum’s pic we cannot see not only the corresponding sheath (if it's a walikat, or a gayaman or a ladrang) but also how the keris is housed inside.

I am however more and more convinced that with a gayman or, even worse, with a ladrang, the insertion in the regular way would be very, but very problematic.
I say this because from the images found on texts, in this forum, in FB groups, or also on You Tube I only find post that confirm what I think and have written and I have yet to see a concrete, real evidence that proves otherwise

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, I doubt that anybody here, or elsewhere, has any problem at all with a reversed hilt, this is not infrequent, it does occur.

The problem arises with a reverse mount to the wrongko.

In normal dress situations, and for several other reasons, this reverse mount to wrongko is simply impractical.

I do believe that there would be a reason for this reverse mount to wrongko, but whatever that reason might be, it falls outside of my experience & knowledge.